Instigator
Points: 6

Messi is a better player than Ronaldo.

Finished

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After 1 vote the winner is ...
Dr.Franklin
Debate details
Publication date
Last update
Category
Sports
Time for argument
Three days
Voting system
Open voting
Voting period
One week
Point system
Four points
Rating mode
Rated
Characters per argument
10,000
Points: 7
Description
Messi is better than Ronaldo.
Round 1
Published:
Why Messi is better.
- Higher goal ratio(the number of goals divided by the number of games). Messi scores every 100 minutes, while Ronaldo is 112. 
- Technical Ability
- Speed
- Creativity
- Passing
- Defense - WhoScored.com
"In the 2016-17 La Liga season, Ronaldo was more likely to commit a foul than generate an interception and produce a successful tackle. He had 0.6 fouls per match, compared to 0.3 interceptions per match and just 0.2 tackles. Messi had much better defensive metrics than Ronaldo. He committed only 0.4 fouls per game but was more likely to generate a tackle (0.7 per game). Those are La Liga numbers, but both players had consistent numbers in the Champions League as well. Messi’s defensive ranking last season was 8.42 (out of 10), while Ronaldo’s was just 7.61."
- Team play, 248 assists
- Discipline
Ronaldo - 131 yellow, 9 red
Messi - 68, ONE highly criticized (many pundits call unfair) red card 
- Accuracy WhoScored.com
"Ronaldo scored 25 goals in 2016-17 but needed 5.6 shots per game to achieve them (160 total).  In contrast, Messi scored 37 goals on fewer shot attempts, notching just 5.3 attempts per game (178 total). Those shooting percentages work out to about 21 percent for Messi, and just 16 percent for Ronaldo."
- Better at scoring free kicks
GOAT at scoring free kicks
Scores 8.5% of free kicks
Ronaldinho scored 7.3%
Ronaldo - 6.3%
- Tied for strength
- Better crossing
- Charity
Lionel Messi Foundation, UNICEF
- So yeah


Published:
I will make the structure for the debate

1.Argument
2.Rebuttals
3.Defense
4.Defensive rebuttals
6.Closing Thoughts

Cristiano Ronaldo has more goals than Lionel Messi in the club career. Ronaldo has scored 660 goals in his good club career, while Messi has scored 624 goals in his club career. 

Ronaldo has proven himself in 4 different clubs in 4 different leagues. While Messi has only played for one club in his career and has found a comfort zone, from which he is not willing to come out.

Ronaldo has 1 major International Trophy. Messi has none.

Ronaldo is the highest ever goal scorer in Champions League with 120 goals, while Messi is at second with 103 goals.


Messi offers nothing for defense. Ronaldo sets up set-pieces and free kick goals. Better tackler and defensive teams overall.

Ronaldo can handle failure. 

For example, Ronaldo missed a penalty at the 2016 Euros but he never gave up because he is used to pressure and the world being against him. When Messi missed a penalty in the 2016 Copa America final, he decided to quit the national team. Messi wants to be in an environment where he will be supported by the press, referees, and analysts. -https://www.ecr.co.za/shows/east-coast-breakfast/six-reasons-why-cristiano-ronaldo-better-lionel-messi/
Ronaldo has more champions league trophies and carried his team more than Messi

Ronaldo outran Puyol and Zambrotta, considered as one of the faster 'backs in the game, to a ball when both started from about 20 yards and Ronaldo a clear 40 to 50 yards away.

When comparing the two, Ronaldo and Messi, it isn't very fair as one is close to 6'2" and the other falls quite short of that mark. But the outstanding aspect of Ronaldo heading ability is the threat with head he posses that taller forwards such as Henry never possessed.


Round 2
Published:
You are simply not looking at the MATHEMATICAL standpoint of the two players.
P.S. You ignored many points. I assume you agree Messi is much better in them. Thus you prove Messi beats Ronaldo in far more things than Ronaldo beats Messi.
1. Yes Ronaldo has more career goals... but in TWO MORE SEASONS. If you look at the average amonut of goals each player scores per game Messi leads 0.8 to Ronaldo's 0.71. Again I will restate, Messi scores every 100 minutes, while Ronaldo scores every 112. 

2. Sure. But Messi has won 5 U-20 World Cups too. Also reaching the World Cup Finals. This argument doesn't hold much weight as, it's not Messi's fault he was born into a country with no good defenders midfielders, and attackers (besides Aguero, maybe Dybala?). 

3. Sure he's obviously a better defender, he's 7 inches taller. But EA's card for both of them as of Fifa 19 has the within 3 points of each other. Also, again I will restate. "In the La Liga season, Ronaldo was more likely to commit a foul than generate an interception and produce a successful tackle. He had 0.6 fouls per match, compared to 0.3 interceptions per match and just 0.2 tackles. Messi had much better defensive metrics than Ronaldo. He committed only 0.4 fouls per game but was more likely to generate a tackle (0.7 per game). Those are La Liga numbers, but both players had consistent numbers in the Champions League as well. Messi’s defensive ranking last season was 8.42 (out of 10), while Ronaldo’s was just 7.61."

4. Your simply not understanding the situation. Messi was under such immense pressure, he felt as if he was not performing well enough, and the team would be better without him. But still your argument doesn't really stand, he still came back, twice. His new Argentina side look much better under Scaloni. My bet to win Copa. 

5. What does your Puyol example prove. Messi has outrun and dribbled pass 5 and upwards defenders at a time. He's fast. As is Mbappe, Neymar, Bale, Sterling, and Sane just to name a few.

6. Sure. He still is behing on Messi regarding goals. Please pay attention to the mathematical and logical nuances of my debate this time. 
Published:
1.Yes Messi scores more goals but its because he's on Barcelona, the team that goes 7-0 on every la liga team that isn't Real Madrid or Athletico.
- Technical Ability
No evidence, plus that doesn't prove he is a better player

Speed
Ronaldo's top speed, according to FIFA,is 33.6 kph, or 21 mph.The more scientific minds at FIFA have recorded Messi at a top speed of 32.5 kph (20.3 mph) during a game.

This proves Ronaldo is faster.

- Creativity
No evidence,doesn't prove he is better

- Passing
No evidence,Ronaldo's key strength is his top important passes and through balls-https://www.whoscored.com/Players/5583/Show/Cristiano-Ronaldo

Defense - WhoScored.com
"In the 2016-17 La Liga season, Ronaldo was more likely to commit a foul than generate an interception and produce a successful tackle. He had 0.6 fouls per match, compared to 0.3 interceptions per match and just 0.2 tackles. Messi had much better defensive metrics than Ronaldo. He committed only 0.4 fouls per game but was more likely to generate a tackle (0.7 per game). Those are La Liga numbers, but both players had consistent numbers in the Champions League as well. Messi’s defensive ranking last season was 8.42 (out of 10), while Ronaldo’s was just 7.61."
Point conceded-
Sure he's obviously a better defender


Team play, 248 assists
Doesn't mean Messi has greater team play, like can he create chances, through balls,etc.


- Discipline
Ronaldo - 131 yellow, 9 red
Messi - 68, ONE highly criticized (many pundits call unfair) red card 
Doesn't prove Messi is a better PLAYER


- Accuracy WhoScored.com
"Ronaldo scored 25 goals in 2016-17 but needed 5.6 shots per game to achieve them (160 total).  In contrast, Messi scored 37 goals on fewer shot attempts, notching just 5.3 attempts per game (178 total). Those shooting percentages work out to about 21 percent for Messi, and just 16 percent for Ronaldo."
One season doesn't effectively reach a conclusion that Messi has better accuracy. In total, Ronaldo has better accuracy on Penalty kicks with Messi doing 25 less penalty kicks-https://michelacosta.com/en/messi-vs-cristiano-ronaldo-penalties-missed-and-scored/


- Better at scoring free kicks
GOAT at scoring free kicks
Scores 8.5% of free kicks
Ronaldinho scored 7.3%
Ronaldo - 6.3%
Thats just free kicks and penalty kicks Ronaldo is better as proven above

Tied for strength
Is that a joke, Messi is 5 feet,7 inches while Ronaldo is 6'2. 

Better crossing
This is just incorrect, Cristiano Ronaldo benefited from his time in England to perfect his crossing technique.-This website describes Ronaldo and how hes better at crossing saying-https://bleacherreport.com/articles/772843-lionel-messi-vs-cristiano-ronaldo-analysing-whos-better-in-20-categories#slide5

I'd take Ronaldo any day if my game was depending on a cross into the box. 

- Charity
Lionel Messi Foundation, UNICEF
Doesn't prove he is a better PLAYER
Round 3
Published:
1. So. Ronaldo has had amazing teams for his whole life too. 
P.S. 
Better player - a player of a more excellent or effective type or quality

Creativity
Lionel Messi doesn’t just score at a prolific rate. He creates for his teammates, too, and it is not a surprise to see him feature highly on the assists list.
The Argentine has an unerring ability to find his attacking partners with inch-perfect passes. Luis Suárez is often a beneficiary of Messi’s vision, though unfortunately, he does not always finish with the composure of Barcelona’s record scorer.

Passing
Messi murders Ronaldo in Fifa 19 with an extra 7 rating points regarding passing. 

Discipline
No, this does very much prove he's a better player. Look at the definition I've given you which I hope is the same one your using  (only one that makes sense). Getting fewer yellow and red cards do in fact make him a better player in this case regarding discipline.

Accuracy
Messi is, in fact, more accurate (better at finishing too) than Ronaldo with shooting in general. Messi only lags behind Ronaldo by a measly 4% in penalties. If you look at Messi's penalties with Barca only, the difference is pretty much nill.

Free Kicks
Point conceded for you. You admit he's better at scoring free kicks.

Strength
Messi greatly overperforms for his height, while Ronaldo underperforms.

Crossing
I'll admit Ronaldo is slightly better at the crossing but Messi is superior regarding short and long passes. 

Charity
Sure it does. It shows Messi is a better charitable player than Ronaldo. This also ties in with morality/discipline.

Published:
You are simply not looking at the MATHEMATICAL standpoint of the two players.
Any evidence? Also the math doesn't say everything like how Messi sucks at international and threatens to quit after Argentina loses. That isn't math but still important.

P.S. You ignored many points. I assume you agree Messi is much better in them. Thus you prove Messi beats Ronaldo in far more things than Ronaldo beats Messi.
No, the structure of the debate states that I defend my points from your rebuttals in round 3 and I make my own argument in round 1.

1. Yes Ronaldo has more career goals... but in TWO MORE SEASONS. If you look at the average amonut of goals each player scores per game Messi leads 0.8 to Ronaldo's 0.71. Again I will restate, Messi scores every 100 minutes, while Ronaldo scores every 112. 
Two more seasons isn't a lot.12 more minutes isnt a lot. Messi has a better team than Real Madrid and FCB scores more goals and creates more chances. FCB scored 141 goals and Messi scored 31% of the goals. Ronaldo scored 30% of the team goals. BARELY A DIFFERENCE ESPECIALLY SINCE RONALDO IS OLDER, YOU CANT SAY MESSI IS A BETTER SCORER.

Sure. But Messi has won 5 U-20 World Cups too. Also reaching the World Cup Finals. This argument doesn't hold much weight as, it's not Messi's fault he was born into a country with no good defenders midfielders, and attackers (besides Aguero, maybe Dybala?). 
U-20 isn't impressive. Yes they went to the world cup finals but choked. Argentina and Portugal are pretty even.

Sure he's obviously a better defender/he's 7 inches taller. But EA's card for both of them as of Fifa 19 has the within 3 points of each other. Also, again I will restate. "In the La Liga season, Ronaldo was more likely to commit a foul than generate an interception and produce a successful tackle. He had 0.6 fouls per match, compared to 0.3 interceptions per match and just 0.2 tackles. Messi had much better defensive metrics than Ronaldo. He committed only 0.4 fouls per game but was more likely to generate a tackle (0.7 per game). Those are La Liga numbers, but both players had consistent numbers in the Champions League as well. Messi’s defensive ranking last season was 8.42 (out of 10), while Ronaldo’s was just 7.61."
Point conceded. Also Interceptions isnt defensive, tackles only do so much and fouls don't matter when its that close. Defense is so much more than tackling and math. Can you block effectively, contain,counter attack well,etc. Those all go to Ronaldo

4. Your simply not understanding the situation. Messi was under such immense pressure, he felt as if he was not performing well enough, and the team would be better without him. But still your argument doesn't really stand, he still came back, twice. His new Argentina side look much better under Scaloni. My bet to win Copa. 
Ronaldo is also under immense pressure,so whats your point. If he wasn't performing well then the he needs to get better and shape up NOT QUIT. Yes, he came back but caused a lot of drama and he hurt the team, Argentina is not winning the Copa, it will be Brazil and Uruguay in the finals

5. What does your Puyol example prove. Messi has outrun and dribbled pass 5 and upwards defenders at a time. He's fast. As is Mbappe, Neymar, Bale, Sterling, and Sane just to name a few.
Ronaldo is faster, he has better stamina and his top speed is faster.-I bring this up>Ronaldo's top speed, according to FIFA,is 33.6 kph, or 21 mph.The more scientific minds at FIFA have recorded Messi at a top speed of 32.5 kph (20.3 mph) during a game. 

Sure. He still is behing on Messi regarding goals.
Dont understand due to spelling mistake.

Please pay attention to the mathematical and logical nuances of my debate this time. 

I did, and Math doesn't show everything like how Messi quits.
Round 4
Forfeited
Published:
My opponent has forfeited.Extend Argument


1. So. Ronaldo has had amazing teams for his whole life too. 
Not as good as Messi and his whole career at FCB

Better player - a player of a more excellent or effective type or quality
You probably should have said that in the description

Creativity
Lionel Messi doesn’t just score at a prolific rate. He creates for his teammates, too, and it is not a surprise to see him feature highly on the assists list.
No evidence

The Argentine has an unerring ability to find his attacking partners with inch-perfect passes. Luis Suárez is often a beneficiary of Messi’s vision, though unfortunately, he does not always finish with the composure of Barcelona’s record scorer.
ok? Messi is the best on FCB,sure but what do you prove.

Passing
Messi murders Ronaldo in Fifa 19 with an extra 7 rating points regarding passing. 
thats a video game and not evidence,how does Fifa base their ratings?

Discipline
No, this does very much prove he's a better player. Look at the definition I've given you which I hope is the same one your using  (only one that makes sense). Getting fewer yellow and red cards do in fact make him a better player in this case regarding discipline.
How?You provide no insight on this comment.How does it fit the definiton,etc?

Accuracy
Messi is, in fact, more accurate (better at finishing too) than Ronaldo with shooting in general. Messi only lags behind Ronaldo by a measly 4% in penalties. If you look at Messi's penalties with Barca only, the difference is pretty much nill.
So 1.Point conceded and 2.Any evidence.

Free Kicks
Point conceded for you. You admit he's better at scoring free kicks.
Sure, but free kicks account for less than 4% of goals

Strength
Messi greatly overperforms for his height, while Ronaldo underperforms.
Evidence?I have still proved why Ronaldo is stringer nevertheless


Crossing
I'll admit Ronaldo is slightly better at the crossing but Messi is superior regarding short and long passes. 
1.Point conceded
2.No evidence

Charity
Sure it does. It shows Messi is a better charitable player than Ronaldo. This also ties in with morality/discipline.
How you don't explain anything
Round 5
Forfeited
Published:
Conclusion:

My opponent has forfeited twice, he promised he wont,but he did. He provides no evidence for his arguments and concedes a lot of points. He also doesn't know the difference between a moral player and a good player.

Extend argument and VOTE CON
Added:
this really shows how much I have improved
Contender
#4
Added:
Bump,vote please
Contender
#3
Added:
Bump
u m p
m p
p
Contender
#2
Added:
Better player meaning what?
Good sportsmanship
or
Good Playing?
#1
#1
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
The first three rounds of this debate consisted of both sides throwing our various statistics.
This type of debate is wholly subjective, and the main single goal of both debaters from their first round is to specify and justify what exactly it is that makes one player better than the other.
Both sides clearly offer some compelling points; but even if accept everything both sides say, it is clear that Messi is better in some areas and Ronaldo is better than others. Neither side justifies why the broad set of facts as a whole make their player better than the other.
As a result of this; I can’t judge that either side showed their player is better, as they both seemed to assume their criteria was more valid than the others.
25% of this debate should be convincing me what makes one player better than the other, and 75% of this debate should have been big picture analysis of how facts, and stats show their player meets this criteria better than the other.
Without sound this, both sides arguments were unanchored and impossible to weigh.
Arguments: tied.
Conduct to con due to the forfeits.