ANTIFA is equivalent to the KKK
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 2 votes and with 10 points ahead, the winner is...
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- One week
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
1. No Ks
2. Be respectful
3. Have fun
Definitions will be established in the first round
STRUCTURE
R1 PRO. Introduction to points
R1 CON. Response to the points + 1 more argument
R2-R3: Rebuttals
R4: Concluding Statements/Overview
ANTIFA is in the same regard of violence as the KKK was to black people. ANTIFA has been radicalized by trying to take down the Conservative culture and will physical harm someone that disagrees with their philosophy and what they stand for. There acts of potential harm to human life including some of these examples
This is hate group action. Taking action to someone you find to disagree with is proving the definition of hostility and such things. This is a hate toward conservative, a sector of society and uses violence to get their way. The exact thing the KKK did. The KKK lynched people of color and did things to harm them, the ultimate goal of ANTIFA in this clip
These are countless attacks on societies people to get their way on people who criticized them and what they stand for. The exact way the KKK did to people who opposed them. They spoke and questioned their souls and such. This is proof that they resemble the KKK
III. ANTIFA violates the 1st Amendment Right
KKK and ANTIFA have both violated the constitution and an amendment. The KKK violated the 13th Amendment, but ANTIFA violates the Bill of Rights. It is unconstitutional in it's act and that automatically causes it to be a hate group. They cover their faces like the KKK did knowing that they are violating the basic rights of a human under the constitution
If the KKK is a hate group because of the brutal attacks and violation of the 1st Amendment, ANTIFA is the same way, proving the hate.
- The Antifa movement is “a conglomeration of left-wing autonomous, militant anti-fascist groups in the United States.The principal feature of antifa groups is their use of direct action, with conflicts occurring both online and in real life. They engage in varied protest tactics, which include digital activism, property damage, physical violence, and harassment against those whom they identify as fascist, racist, or on the far-right.”
- The Ku Klux Klan, (commonly called the KKK or the Klan), is “an American white supremacist hate group. The Klan has existed in three distinct eras at different points in time during the history of the United States. Each has advocated extremist reactionary positions such as white nationalism, anti-immigration and—especially in later iterations—Nordicism and anti-Catholicism. Historically, the Klan used terrorism—both physical assault and murder—against groups or individuals whom they opposed. All three movements have called for the ‘purification’ of American society and all are considered right-wing extremist organizations.
- Equivalent means (in this context) “equal in force, amount, or value.”
- The fallacy of false equivalence is described as “An argument or claim in which two completely opposing arguments appear to be logically equivalent when in fact they are not. The confusion is often due to one shared characteristic between two or more items of comparison in the argument that is way off in the order of magnitude, oversimplified, or just that important additional factors have been ignored.
Thing 1 and thing 2 both share characteristic A.
Therefore, things 1 and 2 are equal.”
I. Act of Harming to People
The KKK and Antifa both share the characteristic of violence.
Therefore, the KKK and Antifa are equal.
According to the conservative Daily Caller, right-wing extremists have committed anywhere from 73 to 92 percent of the ideologically motivated murders in the U.S. over the last 10 years. To date, Antifa has killed ...
... no one.”
I.A.1. PRO’s first example of Antifa violence is a YouTube video of an ABC News report of a rumor of violence spread by a conservative YouTube personality. University of Utah spokesperson Chris Nelson told the local Fox News station that same evening that, “Police looked at the video, evaluated other information available to them, and determined the individuals did not pose a credible threat that warranted action.”
CON’s first example of Klan violence is the 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing in Birmingham, Alabama on Sept. 15, 1963. The FBI determined that four known Klansmen planted at least 15 sticks of dynamite under the steps of the church, timed to explode during Sunday morning services. 4, 11-14 year old choir girls were killed, 22 other churchgoers were maimed, blinded, and otherwise injured.
I.A.2 PRO’s second example of Antifa violence does show 2 bottle rockets fired into the air and one egg nearly hitting a reporter. The Washington Post’s description of the event was less interested, “...outside of a confrontation between some Antifa, or anti-fascist, protesters and police long after the rally had ended, there were no reports of violence.” The Wikipedia entry for the Unite the Right 2 Rally states that the “rally ended without violence.”
I.C PRO has argued that the Klan and Antifa are alike in violence. CON compares at least 5,000 dead from the Klan vs. 0 dead from Antifa argues that Antifa is nothing like the Klan in terms of violence.
“ As if the damage done by far-left extremists is in any way equivalent to the damage done by far-right radicals.It isn't.According to the conservative Daily Caller, right-wing extremists have committed anywhere from 73 to 92 percent of the ideologically motivated murders in the U.S. over the last 10 years. To date, Antifa has killed ...... no one.”
IV.B The Southern Poverty Law Center describes the Ku Klux Klan oldest, largest, and most infamous hate group in American history.
Antifa has no history in America, no folklore.
IV.B.4 This claim is strictly personal observation and difficult to document but the average Klan member seems to be in his 50s, white, male, with a high school education. Judging mostly by arrest records, Antifa seems mostly in their 20’s, non-white, college educated, and female and queer to a remarkable degree, possibly even comprising a majority of Antifa groups.
Awaitng CON :)
Counter Response to Wiki Definition:My opponent claims that the same source does not define ANTIFA as a hate group.
This is because the KKK is the most notorious hate group in America. We will soon realize that ANTIFA is the same hate genre as the KKK itself, due to leftist belief that they are morally right to kill and shoot people and kidnap people because of conservative values.
I. AT to KillingI.A.1. PRO’s first example of Antifa violence is a YouTube video of an ABC News report of a rumor of violence spread by a conservative YouTube personality. University of Utah spokesperson Chris Nelson told the local Fox News station that same evening that, “Police looked at the video, evaluated other information available to them, and determined the individuals did not pose a credible threat that warranted action.”In the video itself, the video clearly displayed a knife in the persons hand. There was also a display of a gun too.
There intent was too do something harmful and bad. While the threat diminished and was not credible, there was a threat there in the first place.
Many KKK leaders have called for action when action was not credible in a sense.
The media covered up what they did too.
CON’s first example of Klan violence is the 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing in Birmingham, Alabama on Sept. 15, 1963. The FBI determined that four known Klansmen planted at least 15 sticks of dynamite under the steps of the church, timed to explode during Sunday morning services. 4, 11-14 year old choir girls were killed, 22 other churchgoers were maimed, blinded, and otherwise injured.The KKK had the resources to get bombs and weapons around that nature to commit these mass harming. They had various funds coming in because they were an established group that was projecting wealth. Security was extremely low too and the threat level in the US was low too. No one would have thought a mass bombing like that from that group would have happen
ANTIFA lives in an age where the world is stricter and harder to get those weapons. They would use these weapons the same way the KKK did.
If they are willing to beat up police officers and kidnap people, then they have the ability to kill.
I.A.2 PRO’s second example of Antifa violence does show 2 bottle rockets fired into the air and one egg nearly hitting a reporter. The Washington Post’s description of the event was less interested, “...outside of a confrontation between some Antifa, or anti-fascist, protesters and police long after the rally had ended, there were no reports of violence.” The Wikipedia entry for the Unite the Right 2 Rally states that the “rally ended without violence.”Rocket launchers had the intent to destroy something in it's path and potentially hurt someone. That was the reason it happened. The ACT of harming or the attempt is what justifies them as a hate group
Unfortunately the website that supplied to video clips could not send the clips. I tried searching, but I was not successful. If I find any in the debate, i will post in comments
CON ignores the evidence of police officers being beaten in prison
and how ANTIFA members have attacked police officers.
All these articles prove that ANTIFA has the intent to harm people, and these article show their actions and highlight what they have done. They have harmed people. If you want more, I will soul search
I.C PRO has argued that the Klan and Antifa are alike in violence. CON compares at least 5,000 dead from the Klan vs. 0 dead from Antifa argues that Antifa is nothing like the Klan in terms of violence.Killing is not nearly the biggest outlier of a hate group. The intent to kill and persecute is the real nail in the coffin.
ANTIFA proves they want to kill and harm others, falling into the same boat as nearly all the hate groups. They don't have resources to kill, but they can brutally harm and beat up as they do. The intent is to kill and harm, making them equal.
We also have to look at time span in this debate. The KKK has been around for nearly 3 centuries and extreme ANTIFA has only been around in 3 years. If there violence keeps happening, it will progress into the same force the KKK has done
------------------II. Moral Right ATMy opponent ignores the point here. Some of my evidence from the article even show how they justify themselves. The KKK justified themselves and ANTIFA justifies there attacks and intent to harm. They violently protest and they beat up people because they people from their perspective, they are morally right.
---------------------------III. Antifa Violates 1st Amendment ATThe First Amendment also states that they are allowed to protest in a non violent and peaceful way. The constitution applies to our lassiez-fair system too with people. A person can not restrict another person right to freedom. The Constitution clearly states this.
ANTIFA wants to silence conservatives.
A person is held to the same standards of the constitution.“ As if the damage done by far-left extremists is in any way equivalent to the damage done by far-right radicals.It isn't.According to the conservative Daily Caller, right-wing extremists have committed anywhere from 73 to 92 percent of the ideologically motivated murders in the U.S. over the last 10 years. To date, Antifa has killed ...... no one.”Her whole news feed is full of opinions and such. She is an opinion author in that sense. She does nothing more than spread her views.
My opponent also states killing, but I am saying that both sides have the same intent to kill.
ANTIFA is literally a military coup ready to kill.
They are ready to kill people.
My evidence shows the violence they have instated.
Both parties are allowed to speak, but they can not act in the way that is unconstitutional. Both the KKK and ANTIFA are unconstitutional.
CON keeps relating to violence.
These are small things that eventually could turn into the magnitude the KKK had and what they did.
My evidence shows the capability they had at the time.
IV. Opposites ATMy opponents state that they are opposite and this is true, but because of who they are hating against, not the hate itselfIV.B The Southern Poverty Law Center describes the Ku Klux Klan oldest, largest, and most infamous hate group in American history.This does not mean that ANTIFA is not the 2nd biggest in American history
or could overtake that in the future. The time that ANTIFA has been around is way less than the KKK.
Membership of ANTIFA is on the rise as well
Antifa has no history in America, no folklore.The KKK was not a folklore at the time near its formation. ANTIFa has been around for a smaller amount of time. This argument is bogus because the history is being rooted, and it is a hate history
IV.B.4 This claim is strictly personal observation and difficult to document but the average Klan member seems to be in his 50s, white, male, with a high school education. Judging mostly by arrest records, Antifa seems mostly in their 20’s, non-white, college educated, and female and queer to a remarkable degree, possibly even comprising a majority of Antifa groups.PRO is now running out of ideas, so they basically start saying characteristics. It doesn't matter what age, gender, sex, you are. If you are a hate group, you take charge at that group you hate. There is no sugar coating it.
I have been a busy man, so I did not have time for R3.Extend my args from R1, the openers, into the R4. Feel free to give conduct to CONVote PRO in args
Had Pro kept the resolution of the debate restricted to "Antifa is a hate group" or "Antifa should be classified as a hate group", then this debate would have been far more interesting to read and weigh the merits that both sides could bring up to discuss. However, by going so far as to claim that the Antifa is the equivalent of the KKK, Pro set themselves up for too much of a burden of proof to overcome, and his arguments reflect that as he relies too much on his own bias rather than tangible facts.
The biggest issue for me as a voter here is not whether or not the Antifa is a hate group or not, but whether or not they are 'equal to' the KKK in terms of membership, history, impact, and body count. Con comes right out fo the gate in round 1 and points out that while the Antifa have clashed with police once in a while and made some threats in heated conflicts, the KKK have been responsible for lynchings and bombings and the deaths of at least a thousand different people throughout history, vastly dwarfing anything the Antifa has ever done..... Pro's claim that 'the Antifa would do the things the Klan did in the past if national security was much laxer than it currently is' falls far short of making the two equivalent which was the goal of the debate, while Con points out in the next round that Pro is unable to point out when the Antifa has killed anyone ever.... Intent to kill from both sides means nothing when one side has a proven bodycount behind them while the other one so far has been pretty much just talk.... The round 3 FF and round 4 extension of the FF leaves argument points squarely in possession of Con, since most of the debate devolved into an analysis of a video Pro tries to rely on as evidence that as Con points out has been heavily edited and is from a notorious source of fake news..... Miscellaneous arguments about Klan membership and historical notoriety also push arguments more in Con's favor, but the sheer death count was more than enough to disprove the notion that the two groups are equal.
As disorganized and misguided as the Antifa are, they are by no means the equivalent of the KKK by any stretch of the imagination, as Con wholly proved in the debate. Source and Spelling points tied since both sides used at least some links for their arguments, but the late round FF does give Con the conduct point.
I feel like this debate may have been because they both like to dress up as masked superheroes (KKK cosplays as Wizards in white robes with red trim, Antifa cosplays as fascists in black with red trim).
Interpreting the resolution:
As someone who dislikes their protection of violent masked criminals who go around mugging people (I live in Portland where this happened. They had the means readily available to self-police; instead, they chose to allow those actions to represent them), this is still a huge ballsy claim. To say they are a hate group comparable to the KKK would be one thing, but outright equivalent seems hard to prove to say the least. Best of luck to pro in trying to uphold it.
Gist:
Pro argues they have striking similarities. Con reminds us this does not equal equivalency.
1. Violence
Con counters this with disparity in scale of violence, and showing in logical form why it doesn’t rise above begging the question. Pro defends by insists Antifa would do all these things if given that chance, which is an assertion which can neither be proven not disproven. Pro insists if any member of a group intends to harm and kill, they are equivalent to the KKK, but con has already at length shown the false equivalency fallacy, making this pre-refuted.
The first video (you can set timestamps on YouTube links, please do that to the relevant part in future), con counters with the kidnappings failing to happen (his own source verified that one of the maniacs was arrested, but for other violent crimes). And follows up with a KKK bombing (thus if Antifa has not at least attempted any bombings, they are not equivalent).
Comparing available information related to the vox article, I am leaning with pro on the objective nature of what happened (when there’s a video of a protester assaulting a cameraperson, it outweighs someone saying that doesn’t count as violence), but that doesn’t mean the violence led to anyone hospitalized. Con does well on the comparison, showing a black newsman brutally murdered by the KKK.
“PRO’s specific examples fall far short of physical violence,” going to disagree, as firing bottle rockets into crowds of people is by definition physically violent.
2. Claimed moral superiority
“...KKK was doing. They wanted to bring a government where black people are segregated or are slaves in society. This institution is the same hate that ANTIFA wants to spread...” please be more careful on your words, as you haven’t even proven Antifa wants to do that to any racial group, let alone black people.
3. 1st Amendment
WTF? As con points out, so long as Antifa is not the government (side note: WTF was with the Rebellion in Star Wars still calling themselves that once they were in charge of everything?), they cannot violate restrictions upon the government.
4. diametrically opposed
Yeah they’re not the same group, this did not need to be hammered home.
---
Arguments: con
See above review of key points. With pro dropping out in R3 and trying to extend the non-victory he had in R4, I am not going to review each of con’s counters... Overall I’d say pro managed to prove they function as a violent hate group (not to say everything they do is violent or hateful, but then again, the sports fans rarely get violent either and by con’s own description are also hate groups). This does not bridge the gap to making them at all comparable to the KKK who have killed thousands.
Sources: con
This debate has the expectation of evidence, which hurt pro going in when he could not find one killing (heck in the preamble of this vote I mention what could qualify as at least attempted murder, but I did not spot it or any other similar cases presented in the debate), when that became the golden standard of comparison.
Worse, pro did not understand his own evidence, as con made very apparent with the constitution subpoint. Admittedly, con did fumble a bit on a couple as well. Credit to both for challenging each other’s evidence.
Oddly con’s best source was Wikipedia’s article on the thousands of lynching’s. Otherwise both used various news sources, I’m somewhat amazed con managed to pull off a Fox News source for his side (Fox News has become a right wing fake news engine, so when they have information siding with the left it speaks volumes...).
Conduct: con
Missed round... That did not end the debate, but not coming back with a strong conclusion did (this is in reference to the argument point... the addressing of points sometimes overlaps)
I appreciate you taking the time to vote. Thanks!
A try hard will be beaten but it is not as easy as somebody who is also incompetent but who doesn't try hard. That is how I interpret it
yeh, that shows.
ok, cool??I guess, I dont care
You use that word tryhard a lot, in fact it was you that got me to look it up a few weeks ago, but I am increasingly convinced you don't understand the word. The definition is usually something about a person of little to no talent posing as a person of more talent. Your usage consistently indicates something else....below you say this debate is easily won unless a tryhard accepts. If a tryhard has little talent, then the debate should be winnable even if a tryhard accepts maybe especially if a tryhard accept. If a tryhard is an obstacle to victory that suggests talent or skill. I suspect you are missing the irony in the popular usage and are perhaps just criticizing people for making an effort.
ok
Both groups are extremist groups. The KKK doesn't kill people anymore in the name of their ideology anymore. They don't vandalize stuff. If they did, they would face some trouble. Dylan Roof murdered 9 black people and the KKK denounces him. The KKK won't call all their political opponents "hate groups". Because of that, I would objectively say that the KKK is more civilized and more stable then Antifa.
* Gasp *
They want to bring down western society and capitalism, their true goal exposed
>>https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40930831
Well what would you suggest?
Hah, you think thats antifa's message
You think "I don't like fascist ideology in this country" is morally comparable to "I don't like non-white people in this country"?
shit a tryhard accepted
Nah
I disagree. The morality of the principles behind Antifa and the KKK are inherently different
easy win for supa unless a tryhard accepts