Instigator / Pro
4
1540
rating
30
debates
56.67%
won
Topic
#1075

ANTIFA is equivalent to the KKK

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
6
Better sources
2
4
Better legibility
2
2
Better conduct
0
2

After 2 votes and with 10 points ahead, the winner is...

oromagi
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
4
Time for argument
One week
Max argument characters
30,000
Voting period
One month
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
14
1922
rating
117
debates
97.44%
won
Description

1. No Ks
2. Be respectful
3. Have fun
Definitions will be established in the first round
STRUCTURE
R1 PRO. Introduction to points
R1 CON. Response to the points + 1 more argument
R2-R3: Rebuttals
R4: Concluding Statements/Overview

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

Had Pro kept the resolution of the debate restricted to "Antifa is a hate group" or "Antifa should be classified as a hate group", then this debate would have been far more interesting to read and weigh the merits that both sides could bring up to discuss. However, by going so far as to claim that the Antifa is the equivalent of the KKK, Pro set themselves up for too much of a burden of proof to overcome, and his arguments reflect that as he relies too much on his own bias rather than tangible facts.

The biggest issue for me as a voter here is not whether or not the Antifa is a hate group or not, but whether or not they are 'equal to' the KKK in terms of membership, history, impact, and body count. Con comes right out fo the gate in round 1 and points out that while the Antifa have clashed with police once in a while and made some threats in heated conflicts, the KKK have been responsible for lynchings and bombings and the deaths of at least a thousand different people throughout history, vastly dwarfing anything the Antifa has ever done..... Pro's claim that 'the Antifa would do the things the Klan did in the past if national security was much laxer than it currently is' falls far short of making the two equivalent which was the goal of the debate, while Con points out in the next round that Pro is unable to point out when the Antifa has killed anyone ever.... Intent to kill from both sides means nothing when one side has a proven bodycount behind them while the other one so far has been pretty much just talk.... The round 3 FF and round 4 extension of the FF leaves argument points squarely in possession of Con, since most of the debate devolved into an analysis of a video Pro tries to rely on as evidence that as Con points out has been heavily edited and is from a notorious source of fake news..... Miscellaneous arguments about Klan membership and historical notoriety also push arguments more in Con's favor, but the sheer death count was more than enough to disprove the notion that the two groups are equal.

As disorganized and misguided as the Antifa are, they are by no means the equivalent of the KKK by any stretch of the imagination, as Con wholly proved in the debate. Source and Spelling points tied since both sides used at least some links for their arguments, but the late round FF does give Con the conduct point.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

I feel like this debate may have been because they both like to dress up as masked superheroes (KKK cosplays as Wizards in white robes with red trim, Antifa cosplays as fascists in black with red trim).

Interpreting the resolution:
As someone who dislikes their protection of violent masked criminals who go around mugging people (I live in Portland where this happened. They had the means readily available to self-police; instead, they chose to allow those actions to represent them), this is still a huge ballsy claim. To say they are a hate group comparable to the KKK would be one thing, but outright equivalent seems hard to prove to say the least. Best of luck to pro in trying to uphold it.

Gist:
Pro argues they have striking similarities. Con reminds us this does not equal equivalency.

1. Violence
Con counters this with disparity in scale of violence, and showing in logical form why it doesn’t rise above begging the question. Pro defends by insists Antifa would do all these things if given that chance, which is an assertion which can neither be proven not disproven. Pro insists if any member of a group intends to harm and kill, they are equivalent to the KKK, but con has already at length shown the false equivalency fallacy, making this pre-refuted.

The first video (you can set timestamps on YouTube links, please do that to the relevant part in future), con counters with the kidnappings failing to happen (his own source verified that one of the maniacs was arrested, but for other violent crimes). And follows up with a KKK bombing (thus if Antifa has not at least attempted any bombings, they are not equivalent).

Comparing available information related to the vox article, I am leaning with pro on the objective nature of what happened (when there’s a video of a protester assaulting a cameraperson, it outweighs someone saying that doesn’t count as violence), but that doesn’t mean the violence led to anyone hospitalized. Con does well on the comparison, showing a black newsman brutally murdered by the KKK.

“PRO’s specific examples fall far short of physical violence,” going to disagree, as firing bottle rockets into crowds of people is by definition physically violent.

2. Claimed moral superiority
“...KKK was doing. They wanted to bring a government where black people are segregated or are slaves in society. This institution is the same hate that ANTIFA wants to spread...” please be more careful on your words, as you haven’t even proven Antifa wants to do that to any racial group, let alone black people.

3. 1st Amendment
WTF? As con points out, so long as Antifa is not the government (side note: WTF was with the Rebellion in Star Wars still calling themselves that once they were in charge of everything?), they cannot violate restrictions upon the government.

4. diametrically opposed
Yeah they’re not the same group, this did not need to be hammered home.

---

Arguments: con
See above review of key points. With pro dropping out in R3 and trying to extend the non-victory he had in R4, I am not going to review each of con’s counters... Overall I’d say pro managed to prove they function as a violent hate group (not to say everything they do is violent or hateful, but then again, the sports fans rarely get violent either and by con’s own description are also hate groups). This does not bridge the gap to making them at all comparable to the KKK who have killed thousands.

Sources: con
This debate has the expectation of evidence, which hurt pro going in when he could not find one killing (heck in the preamble of this vote I mention what could qualify as at least attempted murder, but I did not spot it or any other similar cases presented in the debate), when that became the golden standard of comparison.
Worse, pro did not understand his own evidence, as con made very apparent with the constitution subpoint. Admittedly, con did fumble a bit on a couple as well. Credit to both for challenging each other’s evidence.
Oddly con’s best source was Wikipedia’s article on the thousands of lynching’s. Otherwise both used various news sources, I’m somewhat amazed con managed to pull off a Fox News source for his side (Fox News has become a right wing fake news engine, so when they have information siding with the left it speaks volumes...).

Conduct: con
Missed round... That did not end the debate, but not coming back with a strong conclusion did (this is in reference to the argument point... the addressing of points sometimes overlaps)