Instigator / Pro
42
1486
rating
4
debates
25.0%
won
Topic
#1144

Dare To Believe! A Kabbalist and a Maimonidean go Head-to-Head in Search of Truth

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
18
0
Better sources
12
4
Better legibility
6
2
Better conduct
6
0

After 6 votes and with 36 points ahead, the winner is...

YitzGoldberg
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
5
Time for argument
Two weeks
Max argument characters
30,000
Voting period
One month
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
6
1498
rating
2
debates
50.0%
won
Description

"Consider this, you who are engaged in investigation, if you choose to seek truth, cast aside passion, accepted thought, and the inclination toward what you used to esteem, and you shall not be led into error."

- Moses Maimonides, The Guide For The Perplexed, 1:76

Our journey began the week before Passover, 2019. I was connected to my new friend, Rabbi Jonathan, via - of all things! - a small class reunion. That aside, we've grown together in knowledge, wisdom, and perhaps unlearned some mistakes along the way. Today, we've taken the bulk of that conversation, and present it to you, unedited, unabridged, for the first time. Neither of us have seen the following issues presented in the form of a lively one-on-one debate, for the current generation, and yet, they seem to divide the Jewish world. A world which, of all places, needs repaired the most.

Though we will have our differences (I'm a mystic, he's a rationalist), the Talmud usually ends with, "These and these are the words of the living G-d." So, both, in their own way, are dedicated paths to Him. It's not the journey which counts, but the destination.

Please, enjoy.

Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments ✔ ✗ ✗ 3 points
Better sources ✔ ✗ ✗ 2 points
Better spelling and grammar ✔ ✗ ✗ 1 point
Better conduct ✔ ✗ ✗ 1 point
Reason: PRO's metaphors were by far the most obscure. Dinklage wedding cake?

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@RationalMadman

Ah, but that is perhaps a misunderstanding of the origin and meaning of purpose.

I think it won't hurt to discuss it here, if you and I will try and find it together.
What is purpose? See if you can answer that one. I will try.

The first definition I find on google says it like this:
"the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists."

This definition makes sense as with anything that is created, it has a purpose. Take computer programming for example. Every program (game, bank account, calculator...etc) has a purpose for existing. This debate site for example has set purpose as an open debating platform purposed for thoughtful debates.

If we take this truth to God, than we see that his "program" of creation also has purpose. Science is the most obvious way we discover nature's various purposes. All life lives like a computer program, purposed to grow, reproduce, and die. Every atom, cell, and other components of life contains various purposes like the different parts of a program.

A leaf for example contains veins that bring nutrients and converted sunlight to a tree. The roots of a tree bring water to the tree. The seeds of a tree are purposed to spread the tree's DNA(a fascinating world of complexity in its own) in order for it to grow in other places and etc...

What about us? If God's creation has purpose as demonstrated, then we too must have purpose. Religion (The study of man's response to God) is how we can explain our purpose, but that is a topic for another time.

What do you think?

To Truth!
-logicae

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@logicae

no we don't. If god exists then god, and by extension everything god 'assigned to us' as a role or destination in life, are all themselves without any real purpose or destination.

god is as meaningless as the atheist's universe, neither more nor less.

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@RationalMadman

I'm glad we agree then that the destination is required for the journey. But you seem to question the meaning of life and, importantly, the existence of God. Our ultimate journey, our life, requires also a destination that will determine whether or not we have meaning.

If God exists, than we have purpose to live our lives to a meaningful end created by this all powerful creator.
If God does not exist, than our journey ends at the grave and ultimate meaning is illusory.

The question becomes "does God exist". A question for another time.

It was nice discussing this topic with you RationalMadman. I hope you well in your own journey and that you blow off all that steam you acquired on this site. (I haven't done anything close to as many debates as you have and am still tired of it!)

Rest well my friend,

To Truth!
-logicae

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@logicae

I have genuiney made my case, in full. There is simply nothing more to it. To understand my philosophy and what I see life as in terms of journey vs destination, look to Taoist philosophy and check out some 'Sadhguru' lectures on YouTube.

I don't want to sit and explain the philosophy of 'not overthinking something that is blatantly true' in life but if you actually want that explained. See Eastern philosophers, especially Taoists or Hindu-esque philosophers and you'll understand a lot more about my attitude to life.

You keep saying a destination is 'needed' but I never said that the journey has no destination, I said what matters in religion and theology is the journey. Wars have been fought for millennia over one side thinking their God or politics were the 'one true destination' in such thinking. I don't support that, only tyrants and/or terrorists do. For me, it's about the discussions, the search, the yearning. You want God, she/he/it will find you in its own way. You don't want God and are happy with out the concept entirely, then atheism will find its way into your heart. Either way, the pleasure of the journey and intricate twists and turns it takes are the entire beauty and 'power' of religion to someone.

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@RationalMadman

Perhaps you missed my answer. I didn't say that one who falls in love has a goal of falling in love. I said that:
"Someone who falls in love has the end goal of meeting his love."
It is clear that lovers want to act on their love, that is the end goal of love.

"inexplicable" means un-explainable. I think what lovers do is pretty well known and doesn't need explanation.
"and what comes along with it." -This is precisely what the destination is.

"I am not sure you're 'thinking' rather just out to 'prove' a semantic tautology."

I'd hope not (please show why this is the case), but I could simply counter assert this ad hominum fallacy to you. Since it proves nothing but a character attack, I think it is best left in the mud.

To Truth!
-logicae

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@logicae

No it isn't. You do not ever fall in love to fall in love, that is never the goal. the goal is actually inexplicable but in the short term is everything other than the falling-in-love itself and what comes along with it.

You speak a lot about needing goals and use Cambridge Dictionary to discuss deep philosophy... I am not sure you're 'thinking' rather just out to 'prove' a semantic tautology.

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@RationalMadman

To "live for" something means you have a goal in mind, that something is the goal.
It is an oxymoron to say "You live for the near-future with no real goal". If you live for nothing, you do not have a journey. Your journey is only what you make of it.

"the destination in mind when falling in love with someone is to experience the love, there's no real destination for wanting it or pursuing it beyond it, in itself"

-Someone who falls in love has the end goal of meeting his love. That's the goal.

"the same goes for the stages in training and every day you get out of bed to do it just because you want to no sleep your life away or deteriorate, regardless of whether or not you end up as a wrestler."

-The journey is not guaranteed to reach the destination, correct. But the end goal is still to become a wrestler, "whether or not you end up as a wrestler".

To Truth!
-logicae

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@logicae

The destination in mind when falling in love with someone is to experience the love, there's no real destination for wanting it or pursuing it beyond it, in itself. the same goes for the stages in training and every day you get out of bed to do it just because you want to no sleep your life away or deteriorate, regardless of whether or not you end up as a wrestler.

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@logicae

Yes, it is a journey. You live for the near-future with no real goal overall just a series of tactical moves where you know all strategies lead to death.

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@RationalMadman

I am perplexed by this statement:

"You can have a journey to nowhere."

How can you?

I can simply do everything in life in vain, but is that a journey?
We need to understand that a journey is moving with a purpose to an end goal.

Dictionary.Cambridge states that the definition of journey is:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
to travel somewhere:
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https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/journey

Notice that in "journey" we have a destination in mind. You have to have a destination, a reason, for going on a journey or else it is not a journey but instead a stand still.

To Truth!
-logicae

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@logicae

It's clear to me with your 'never' and 'no one ever said' that you're far more familiar with traditional Western and Arab philosophy than Eastern or Pagan philosophy.

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@logicae

You can have a journey to nowhere. That's exactly what life is.

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@RationalMadman

There was no journey.
You cannot have a journey to nowhere, but anyone on a journey must have a destination in mind.
For a college student it is a degree for example.

"Equally, a terrible journey can appear at first to have a great destination but the very horror of the journey snowballs into a hatred of having become trapped in that destiny."

Agreed, it is important that we recognize that there is a destination. No one ever said "I'm going nowhere" as an answer to explain their journey.

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@logicae

But the destination changed in all the scenarios I brought up and yet the journey continues and was so worth it regardless of their failure to become the wrestling pro they wanted to become.

Equally, a terrible journey can appear at first to have a great destination but the very horror of the journey snowballs into a hatred of having become trapped in that destiny.

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@RationalMadman

True, but they have a goal in mind, a reason for training. No one trains for something without first figuring out what that something is.
My question for you is 'do best' in what? If you do something for nothing, then everything you do has no purpose.

To Truth!
-logicae

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@logicae

Not at all. If you observe the people who 'do best' in life. They learned to use all kinds of experience and training, often totally unrelated to the specific walk of life they ended up using it on, and aggregated people skills, critical thinking formats and many other things along the way that gave them a unique and brutal edge in the later walk of life. Training for wrestling in a true sense, would give you skills in the entertainment industry, almost all sports and stuntman careers, modelling and much more.

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@logicae

Thank you for sharing your thinging. We are in agreement.

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@RationalMadman

How odd.

Is it not because the destination matters that the journey is given a purpose and so matters? Take training for wrestling for example. Would this training not be in vain if the trainer had no reason to use the training?

Religion is no different. The journey then is important only because the destination is vital.

To Truth!

-logicae

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@Melcharaz

Yes, we both do, but let me explain. Not all portions of the Talmud are inspired. Only those which are halachic in nature, meaning, Jewish law. This was given to Moses at Sinai. Things which are parables, biographies, homilies, the like, are what's known as aggadah, and aren't divine.

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@YitzGoldberg

Do you and this other person believe the talmud to be inspired by YHWH?

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@RationalMadman

I completely agree, I was saying it in the context of Judaism alone, though.

The journey is actually what matters in religion, NOT the destination. :)

I will enjoy