This is not a debate. . . it's a message. Already, I have stumbled upon an anti-Semite. Type1, that's what he goes by. Now, I know the world isn't perfect, and anti-Semitism is a disease without a cure and it's able to survive any weapon we use against it, so don't be fooled, it never died with the Shoah. Still, criticism which is unjust, which topples the government, and causes mass genocide, is no mere first amendment right to me. You cannot claim a right to free speech when you call out for the death of Jews, Blacks, and other minorities. Yes, fight fire with fire, but how do you fight off death threats? Do you make one yourself? No, you can't. At least no reasonable person would. But I'm not here to make solutions, I'm here to point out the hypocrisy of those individuals who believe, with an undying heart, that Israel, and the Jewish people, are made with certain ingredients, that of disloyalty, money greed, and Fascism. Of course, they're all false, but that last one sticks in your mind. Israel. . . Fascist? Really? Let's see what the definition of Fascism is. To be brief, it's the suppression of knowledge, of alternative voices. We know this to be true because of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. But Israel is none of those. I always find it amusing when the super-Left claim Israel to be an apartheid state. South Africa was an apartheid state, what about speaking to one of them, one who lived through that before you rant on Israel? Sounds like a good idea to me, one of objectivity, too. But did you catch that? The Right isn't alone in its anti-Semitism. They may be more approachable about it, more visible. but the Left can be just as noise, if not worse. Well, what makes me say this? They've found a way to hide it under. . . anti-colonialism, White privilege, and the rhetoric of human rights,...And it isn't long before that hatred of Israel transcends into hatred of Jews. But I don't play the "Jew card." You're open to criticize me if you want. I won't hide. None of us are immune to honest inquiry and open dialogue, but before you do so, please recognize this: I, myself, criticize Israel often. But criticizing her policy (which Jew doesn't?), isn't the same as hoping for her demise. If Israel goes, the whole Middle East goes. Do you really think Israel is less democratic than the Arab states? Over in Gaza, they're throwing gays off their roofs. I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound Liberal to me.
As you see, these old anti-Semitic tropes are as old as fire. They've been around with us for a long time, longer than you think.
But this here, is for Type1 and all the rest of your clan of haters: do you really think you're a revolutionary? That you're showcasing truth and pulling off the tarp from academia which makes the masses blind? Well, let me tell ya, you're not. Anyway, the BDS got there before you, and believe me, they dream of Israel's destruction, under the guise of asking for a state of Arabs - what do you think that means? That the Jewish state just moves to Mars? No, we know what they want, you know what they want. Don't make the mistake in thinking that you're not a specimen to the laws of nature, that you're not prejudiced, or intolerant. We're not above history, the human condition is still here, and it's not just an academic exercise in which this generation studies. Anti-Semitism, my friend, is a relic of the past. But that doesn't mean we can fight it, and fight it, we will.
They knew about the ship being American hours before the strike. American ships didn't look remotely like Egyptian ones.
Israel already gas dual-population state with over 20% Arabs, so making it an Arab state will do no good.
As far as the USS Liberty incident, all I can say is that you're grossly mistaken. I've done a lot of research into this myself, it was a mistake all the way through. There are no good arguments you can make to prove otherwise.
If God is all you need to defend Israel, why are you thankful that other Americans don't think like me? Apparently you don't need us. What a joke! You'd have gotten stomped in the Yom Kippur War if we didn't bail you out. It is a parasitic relationship. We give billions and American blood. What do they give us? More and more people are becoming aware of Israel's flaws and are starting movements against the state. AIPAC tries to dox them, but eventually people will learn. I will never forget that they bombed a ship (the USS Liberty) they knew was ours during the Six Day War to attempt to drag us into the conflict.
If you ever thought Israel needed your help, and yours specifically, you’re mistaken. We can do without your support, G-d is all we need. Thankfully, the majority of Americans are in disagreement with you.
I'm not sure you know my position. My position is: screw both sides. Fund neither and leave them to their fate. I could go into the specifics of what Israel has done wrong, but I'm not on the side of the Middle East. Most Middle Eastern countries are run by terrorists and Israel is a leech. We fund their military and also die defending it. Screw both.
Former Israeli PM, Mithal al-Alusi, has twice visited Iraq, drawing protests from the Iraqi government in 2004 and 2008. Let me remind you that it was the Israeli government, and not the Iraqi one, which purposed peace and a sharing of military intelligence. During the 2010 Gaza War, in which Israel attempted to end the constant rocket fire by Hamas into civilian territory, guess who supported Hamas? Iraq. The same results came from the Israeli raid on civilian boats housing Palestinian weapons ready for war in what’s known as the Gaza Flotilla Raid. In 2012, Iraqi Prime Minister, Nouri al-Maliki, stopped all established diplomatic relations with Israel, while making peace with the rest of the Arab world. In 2017, Israel was the only world power to support the independence of Iraqi Kurdistan. In the Kirkuk Crisis, Iraqi forces overran their outposts and bases, but Israel helped prevent further setbacks via international lobbying.
But I guess none of this matters to bmdrocks21, because clearly I’m not telling the truth, clearly, I must be merely spamming him.
That’s your way of shutting me up. You know I merely had a lot to say, it wasn’t spamming, and you should be ashamed of yourself for accusing me of such. Now, what about this Iraqi thing? Ever since the ‘48 war (the two never signed a peace treaty), Israel has been threatened by Iraq. In the 6 Day War (which Israel undertook herself, mind you), Iraqi forces were sent in as back-up. During the Yom Kippur War, Iraqi forces aided Syria in counter-attacks, but again were pushed back, and Israel was just a mere 40 km from Damascus. During the villainous reign of Saddam Hussein, Israel sent bombers to destroy the Osirak nuclear reactor, this was in 1981, and Israel supported Iran in the Iran-Iraq War; Iraq was then developing bombs against Oran. In 1991, during the Gulf War, Iraq fires 42 Scud missiles at Israel, hoping to drag her into conflict, and disrupt the American-Arab coalition in the region. The US pressured Israel to stay out of war and we did. In 1992, Yitzhak Rabin organized Operation Bramble Bush, an assassination attempt on Hussein with Sayeret Matkal commandos. It failed. Three years later, he contacted the dictator to finally make peace after all these years (hoping Syria and Iran would follow by example), but was sadly assassinated himself on November 4, 1995. It is no secret that Hussein supported Palestinian guerrilla warfare, especially the second Palestinian intifada. During Operation Iraqi Freedom, Israel was not involved. John Kerry recollected that Benjamin Netanyahu (as a private citizen), supported the invasion. Former US Undersecretary of Defense, Douglas Feith, has attested that, “What you heard from the Israelis was not any kind of advocacy for war with Iraq... what you heard from Israeli officials in private discussions was that they were not really focused on Iraq... [t]hey were much more focused on Iran."
Since 2004, Iraq has refused any negotiations towards peace with Israel.
I will proudly cry you a river
Plus, stop spamming Alec
So you're denying Israel's influence over our politics? Sure, I'd be fine with lessening NATO contributions, but NATO doesn't have us in Syria, potentially Iran, or previously Iraq. And if you want to pretend that Israel was against the Iraq invasion, I have a quick clip for you https://youtu.be/wHmhf_wrcrM
I hope for peace, I hope for a two-state solution, but if the Arabs reject it, war will come. If war comes, and if we merit the chance to win it, the Arabs will have to face an ultimatum: continue or fighting, or go home to their own lot.
Israel doesn't push Americans to fight her wars. Israel was against Bush going in in Iraq. Israel fought all by herself in the 6 Day War. If the US should stop giving aide to Israel, then stop NATO, stop everything.
Don't be mistaken, Israel hasn't survived because of US aide. Of course we're grateful for it, but the real reason is our trust in G-d, and if the US continues to aide her mighty hand and support, she too will be blessed. I believe what the Torah says, I have no reason to doubt it. Trust in G-d.
I think Golda Meir made a beautiful point when she said in '69, "How can we return the occupied territories? There is no one to return them to." If anyone's been "occupied," its been us... first the Assyrians, then the Babylonians, the Greeks, the Romans, Ottomans and the Brits. We belong here, in Israel. Don't tell us we're the occupies in our own home.
However, Arab population in the land - from the Crusades on to the twentieth century - has been a minor 2-300,000. Population experts aren't afraid to say it would have been stagnate had it not been for the massive influx of Jews in the land. Yes, we came in waves since 1882. But the Arabs also had their flood. Well, they wanted to enjoy a higher standard of living, as well as fight those Jews who made it possible. So, by 1948, the Arab population rose to 1.3 million. Alec, it doesn't take a genius to figure out why the Arabs have suffered so much, a British governor Sinai once said, "It is very difficult to make a case for the misery of the Arabs, if at the same time, their compatriots from adjoining states could not be kept from going in to share that misery."
So send your Arabs friends to Morocco, Syria and Egypt, they don't belong in our land, never have, and never will. But wait, you think you've got the ace in the hole, do ya? Return the land to the 1967 boarders. Okay, challenge accepted... the thing is, those borders aren't from 1967! To be truthful about it, the borders of the West Bank don't exist at all. They were created as an armistice line, a result of the '48 war between Israel and Jordan. See, that line is where the armies stood still. And in '67, that line served as a border between the warring nations, with Jordan having annexed the West Bank (a violation of international law). Remember that when Jordan took territory in '49, the Jews of the West Bank and East Jerusalem were ethnically cleansed, and synagogues, nothing left to speak of. Of course Jews were banned from their holy sites, such as the Western Wall. The so-called "Palestinians" were converted into Jordanian citizens. Therefore, Israel can't go back to the '67 borders! There was no Palestinian state then (or ever), and the land was promised by the British Mandate in '22 to be a territory for Jews.
The original Aramaic says that he was taken not to the city of G-d, but to Al-Aqsa, which merely means "the farthest place." The earliest of Islamic scholars interpreted that to mean the heavenly realm, the courtyard of Allah. But when the political might of Saladin rose up, that interpretation changed. He said it was Jerusalem, in part, to have claim to capturing the place from the Christians. The nutty thing about Muslims is that once they claim a piece of real-estate, its theirs, forever. Well, not technically. In 1924, the Jerusalem Supreme Islamic Council published a tourist pamphlet on the Temple Mount, recognizing the site the originally have been Solomon's Temple. It said the site was "beyond dispute... according to the universal belief." In 1927, there was a strong earthquake, and the Dome of the Rock was damaged, giving archaeologists the rare chance at excavating the site while under repair. One of the things they found were beams made of cider from Lebanon. This dated back to the 9th century BCE. In other words, Solomon's Temple. Also discovered was a mikveh (a ritual bath) from the Second Temple.
Even though we were here first, the Arabs claim that they were the longest. But is that true? First off, there has always been a minor Jewish settlement in Judah, so there was never a time in our history where no Jews were in the land. Just none. And the Samaritans were there when we left, and they've witness our return. They testify to the truth of whom the land really belongs too.
Let's now examine the Palestinian claim to the land. We're the Palestinians the original inhibitors of the land? In short, Canaanites? Not a chance, as they were obliterated by Joshua, as recorded in the Bible, with hardly a stitch of archaeological trace. Survivors assimilated into Israelite culture. Nor do the Palestinians share the DNA markers of the original Philistines. Those people were a sea-faring people from Crete, and the name means "invaders." In fact, Palestine means "invaded land." When these people came over in the 12th century BCE, they never moved as far as Jerusalem, but in fact, huddled to the coast-line.
Around the 7th century, they were conquered by the Assyrians, then, the Babylonians. I doubt a single Philistine exists today. But if our Arab friends want to claim such luxurious ancestry, guess what, buy a plane to Crete, cause that's where they're from. When we look at the biological level, the Palestinians are a montage of Saudis, Iraqis, Syrians and Jordanians. Throughout history, there has never been a Palestinian state, nor one thought up of, until recent times. So where did this come from? According to Muslim tradition, Muhammad traveled to the Al-Aqsa Mosque - scratch that - I mean Saladin's interpretation. There is no known tradition of Muhammad ever visiting Jerusalem, period. His armies didn't arrive there till after his death. In fact, you won't even find the city's namesake in the Quran. Contrast that the the biblical text, there, we find Jerusalem mentioned over 600 times. It's no contest. So what about this Saladin thing? When the Muslims first entered Jerusalem (690 CE), they built their mosque, out of respect, for it was a holy site. In fact, the foundation of the Dome of the Rock, belongs to Bar Kochba's attempt at the Third Temple. In any case, Muhammad was dead by 632 CE, so how did he travel at night to the mosque in Jerusalem?
And guess what? The Arabs agree with her. In 1937, Awni Abdul-Hadi said to the British Peel Commission, "There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible... [it] is alien to us." Um... interesting. A decade passes, and we find another Arab, Dr. Philip Hitti, in agreement: "There is no such thing as Palestine in history. Absolutely not." That was in his testimony to the Anglo-American Committee in 1946. Another ten years pass, and we find a representative from Saudi Arabia, describing the following to the UN, "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria." Even Hafez Al-Assad told Yasser Arafat to "Never forget this one point: there is no such thing as a Palestinian people. There is no Palestinian entity... [it] is an integral part of Syria." Alec, it wasn't even called "Palestine" until the Romans took it over and wanted to rename Judah and end all trace of there ever having been a Jewish people. That was long ago, in 135 CE. But, as time has shown, we're still here today, and the Romans aren't.
You say you're upset at the Us giving billions of dollars a year to Egypt, but it's not about returns. As far as Israel is concerned, we're grateful, and the return is that those who bless Israel, are blessed by G-d. The return is that good people thrive. I'm not suggesting that the Arabs can't be a great people, but so far, that's hard to espouse such a title on a people who give little to no rights to women, freedom of religion, and a free market society engineered for an increase in technology, trade, and the benefit of all mankind. So yes, if you're asking me what good Israel does in an unjust world, the answer is many.
One last thing for tonight. Who are the Palestinians? Israeli PM, Golda Meir, once said, "There is no such thing as the Palestinian people... it's not as if we came and threw then out and took their country. They don't exist." Let's examine the case, shall we?
This picture you play in your head, that somehow Jews would have lived side-by-side peacefully with Arabs, it's totally fabricated.
You don't believe me? Liberal teachers. Okay, here's the facts, not emotional drama:
"Our aim is the full restoration of the rights of the Palestinian people. In other words, we aim at the destruction of the State of Israel. The immediate aim: perfection of Arab military might. The national aim: the eradication of Israel." – President Nasser of Egypt, November 18, 1965.
"We will not accept any ... coexistence with Israel. ... Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel .... The war with Israel is in effect since 1948." – Nasser, May 28, 1967.
"The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear – to wipe Israel off the map. We shall, God willing, meet in Tel Aviv and Haifa." – President Abdel Rahman Aref of Iraq, May 31, 1967.
"This is a fight for the homeland – it is either us or the Israelis. There is no middle road. The Jews of Palestine will have to leave. We will facilitate their departure to their former homes. Any of the old Palestine Jewish population who survive may stay, but it is my impression that none of them will survive." – Shukairy, June 1, 1967.
"We shall destroy Israel and its inhabitants and as for the survivors – if there are any – the boats are ready to deport them." – Shukairy, June 1, 1967, speaking at a Friday sermon in Jerusalem.
And if the Arabs ever do take the land back, or a win a war, I assure you, they will outnumber us Jews fast, and it won't be a good day to be Jewish!
Explain to me why we should give billions of dollars to a country that lobbies our Congress to entrench us in constant wars in the Middle East. Funding neo-conservative war hawk trash that send thousands of brave men to die and waste trillions of dollars in these wars that in no way benefit us, but only benefit our "ally". After the Cold War, we should have stopped funding them. Then maybe our Middle Eastern relations wouldn't be so bad.
In the 2000s, Israeli PM, Ehud Barak met with the Palestinian Liberation Organization Chairman, Yasser Arafat, to discuss a two-state solution. Israel offered a grand deal, as always: Gaza, 94% of the West Bank, and a capital in East Jerusalem. You know what happened, it should be obvious already. President Clinton said of Arafat for "14 days, he said 'no' to everything." What more can they want, the Arabs? So you say Israel has done over 43x damage to Arabs, what about the inspiration Arafat offered to his people? What about the suicide bombings which killed over 1,000 Israelis? Do that count for anything? Then you have 2008, the last - to date - organization for peace on behalf of the Arabs. This time, Ehud Olmert went further than any Israeli PM before him, offering again, 94% of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and additional land grabs. But Mahmoud Abbas turned it down. In between both offers, in 2005, Israel unilaterally left Gaza, but instead of developing it for their citizenry, what do our great friends, the Arabs do? They turn it into a terrorist safe-house to fire untold rockets into Israeli territory. Then you wonder why we fight back, when given the chance. It's time people like you stopped pressuring Israel to make more offers, and rather, ask the Arabs to just accept one, and to accept the existence of Israel. Is that too hard to ask, Alec?
Let's now move on to your other wondrous claims. You say the Arabs helped Jews leave Nazi Germany. False. Nothing could be further from the truth, that is, if you've never heard of Hajj Amin al-Husayni? The man barely avoided trial at Nuremberg for having barred escaping Jews entrance into the Middle East. Do your research, Alec, and save yourself the embarrassment next time. It would behoove you to recognize a single fact: what would have transpired had the Arabs won in '48, '67, and '73? You know what would have taken place, stop lying to yourself!
Alec, I'm sorry, but you sound just like the anti-Semite I perceived, the one I talked about in my official post. You believe that Israel must go, her people, removed, and the land reverted back to a people who never existed. Let me explain a few things upfront. I, a Jew, have no problem criticizing Israel for her misdeeds, but I'll never ask her to dissolve. To become slaves to a people who'd surely end the only free world in the Middle East.
In 1918, the Ottoman Empire fell. In 1936, a British commission decided to create two states to end the feud: one for Jews, one for Arabs, and the latter would get 80% of the territory. Sounds like a good deal for Arabs. But what happened? It wasn't good enough for the Arabs, they rejected it, even though the Jews were in favor. That was the first rejection. The second came in 1947; guess who rejected it? Guess who started the war? Arabs. Israel competed against five nations: Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan and Syria, and came out victorious, having fought with one hand tied behind her. In due process, both the West Bank and East Jerusalem shifted into Arab hands. Twenty years later, in 1967, the Arabs went at it again, and again they were pounded hard by the Israeli sledge-hammer. Israel now controlled all, including the Gaza strip, and much of Sinai. Alec, it was the Israelis who wanted to return the Sinai, Gaza, and the West Bank to Arab hands in exchange for peace, not the Palestinians. Months passed, and an Arab delegation met in Sudan, initiating the "Three No's." I'm assuming you'll quite familiar with them. There would be no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, and no negotiations with Israel. Two wars, and no progress towards peace, and you'll telling me the Jews are the bad guys? That was rejection #3. But it just gets worse from there.
I am fine with not funding Egypt at all unless the US gets something in return, but Israel gets way more funding and they have way less people then Egypt.
If Israel has done things wrong, why don't you protest them? I have yet to see you do that. What good has Israel done to the free world? It has violated international law 43x.
When Jews were oppressed in Natzi death camps, Palestine welcomed them. How did the Jews repay Palestine? By improving it's economy? No. By creating a separatist movement called Israel that bit the hand that fed it in terms of refuge from the Natzis.
A better solution would be to give all of the land Israel has conquered to Palestine, and to let the Jews live in peace under Palestinian rule. Whether it's Israel ruling the whole area or Palestine ruling the whole Israel Palestine area, the religious demographics would be about the same. A One state Palestinian solution would allow the Jews religious freedom and would give the land back to the people who owned it first. If the US welcomed a foreign group in a big enough number, I wouldn't want them forming their own country out of US land.
Since 1979 onward, the US has been given Egypt an average of $1.6 billion a year. Most of it goes to the military. I can ask the same question: what does the US get out of this?
Israel has done wrong in the past, and will continue to in the future. This is a fact, and it doesn't matter if I'm Jewish, if Israel does wrong, I will be there, in protest. But you forget all the good she does to the free world. It's easy to complain than applaud.
In your message, you mentioned the Israel Palestine tension. I have heard good arguments on both sides. Since your Pro Israel ( I don't know how you feel about West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem, and Golan) I think I am obligated to take the Pro Palestine stance.
From what I have read, Palestine has human rights and their bill of rights establishes religious freedom. I am unsure if Gaza throws Gays off buildings, every middle East state is different, otherwise they would have united by now. Palestine certainly has more human rights then some of America's allies (Saudi Arabia).
The UN has stated that Israel has violated international law 43x. The only denier is the United States. Had it not been for the US, Israel probably would have faced UN punishment. The US spends $28 billion a year on Israel, how does the US benefit from this? If we pull funding out right now, Palestine would invade Israel with the help of Arab countries. As long as the Jews or anyone else isin't unjustifiably oppressed, what would be the problem? The Jews tended to be immigrants to Israel. This has lead to many Jews in the region calling for independence, due to their concentration in the Israel Palestine area. Now Israel is trying to claim South Lebanon. Why? If every Jew criticizes Israel, why isn't Israel obeying international law?
...And it isn't long before that hatred of Israel transcends into hatred of Jews. But I don't play the "Jew card." You're open to criticize me if you want. I won't hide. None of us are immune to honest inquiry and open dialogue, but before you do so, please recognize this: I, myself, criticize Israel often. But criticizing her policy (which Jew doesn't?), isn't the same as hoping for her demise. If Israel goes, the whole Middle East goes. Do you really think Israel is less democratic than the Arab states? Over in Gaza, they're throwing gays off their roofs. I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound Liberal to me.
As you see, these old anti-Semitic tropes are as old as fire. They've been around with us for a long time, longer than you think.
But this here, is for Type1 and all the rest of your clan of haters: do you really think you're a revolutionary? That you're showcasing truth and pulling off the tarp from academia which makes the masses blind? Well, let me tell ya, you're not. Anyway, the BDS got there before you, and believe me, they dream of Israel's destruction, under the guise of asking for a state of Arabs - what do you think that means? That the Jewish state just moves to Mars? No, we know what they want, you know what they want. Don't make the mistake in thinking that you're not a specimen to the laws of nature, that you're not prejudiced, or intolerant. We're not above history, the human condition is still here, and it's not just an academic exercise in which this generation studies. Anti-Semitism, my friend, is a relic of the past. But that doesn't mean we can fight it, and fight it, we will.
Sorry everyone, I meant to write, but had an emergency at home and couldn't - everything's fine now, no worries. Here's the message:
This is not a debate. . . it's a message. Already, I have stumbled upon an anti-Semite. Type1, that's what he goes by. Now, I know the world isn't perfect, and anti-Semitism is a disease without a cure and it's able to survive any weapon we use against it, so don't be fooled, it never died with the Shoah. Still, criticism which is unjust, which topples the government, and causes mass genocide, is no mere first amendment right to me. You cannot claim a right to free speech when you call out for the death of Jews, Blacks, and other minorities. Yes, fight fire with fire, but how do you fight off death threats? Do you make one yourself? No, you can't. At least no reasonable person would. But I'm not here to make solutions, I'm here to point out the hypocrisy of those individuals who believe, with an undying heart, that Israel, and the Jewish people, are made with certain ingredients, that of disloyalty, money greed, and Fascism. Of course, they're all false, but that last one sticks in your mind. Israel. . . Fascist? Really? Let's see what the definition of Fascism is. To be brief, it's the suppression of knowledge, of alternative voices. We know this to be true because of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. But Israel is none of those. I always find it amusing when the super-Left claim Israel to be an apartheid state. South Africa was an apartheid state, what about speaking to one of them, one who lived through that before you rant on Israel? Sounds like a good idea to me, one of objectivity, too. But did you catch that? The Right isn't alone in its anti-Semitism. They may be more approachable about it, more visible. but the Left can be just as noise, if not worse. Well, what makes me say this? They've found a way to hide it under. . . anti-colonialism, White privilege, and the rhetoric of human rights,
What's the message?