Instigator / Pro
Points: 3

Trump, Blue Lives Matter & The Fallacy of America As A Nation

Finished

The voting period has ended

After 1 vote the winner is ...
TheAtheist
Debate details
Publication date
Last update
Category
Politics
Time for argument
One day
Voting system
Open voting
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Four points
Rating mode
Rated
Characters per argument
8,000
Required rating
3
Contender / Con
Points: 7
Description
After watching the news over the past few weeks, It's becoming more evident that America is nothing more than a joke of a nation. From immigration to crooked politicians, the US can now be labelled as a true fallacy. Law enforcement is still doing dirt on camera and are still getting away with it. The blatant disrespect to each other is out of hand, and the scam that's known as blue lives matter has fully been exposed as just another American fraud. America is an empire, but it's far from great. If you asked most logical-minded people, then would totally agree that country never was great to begin with. As with all other empires throughout time, this country will come to its knees.
If you disagree with my argument, then you're more than welcome to discuss it with me. As with all my arguments, I'm simply looking to create dialogue rather than trying to win a debate.
Round 1
Published:
As I stated in the introduction, American is a joke of a nation at this point in time. I'm just pointing out some of the nonsense that's going on. Some of the dumbest news stories tend to come from this country as well as some of the most corrupt news stories. From white people randomly calling the cops on black people for simply breathing to Hispanics throwing temper tantrums because they have to be deported for coming here illegally. The US has an utter idiot in the White House who has no political experience, but that goes to prove that the average American who voted for Trump has no common sense.

And where are those thousands of job positions that Trump was suppose to be bringing back to the US? 

Blue Lives Matter has been exposed on numerous occasions to be a fraud, especially after some of the most recent news stories. It's rather puzzling to see how some people can try to justify the actions of criminal cops...Then again, crooked minds tend to think alike so I just basically answered my own question. It's also rather ridiculous to tell someone else to go back to their homeland, especially when the person who said it isn't even in his homeland.

Yep, it doesn't make any sense what-so-ever.

All of this fake patriotism has gotten out of hand as well. If Americans are so patriotic, then why do Americans not stand up against the injustice that's happening here? The hypocrisy is unreal. Why are white people mad about Nike pulling those "Betsy Ross" sneakers from the shelves? So, what exactly are you mad about? The majority of the #MeToo movement is utter nonsense. Yes, there are some women who've been treated bad, but we all know that this is simply a money grab.
Case in Point: Bill Cosby's sitting in prison because of here say while Harvey Weinstein is getting all of his charges dropped despite having recorded evidence. 

My position on this is that America is unjust and it can't be denied, which is why America is falling as we speak. If you think otherwise, then let's hear what you have to say about it.
Published:
Before our discussion begins, we should try to find some things that we agree on. Here's what I agree with you on:

  • Sometimes, white people call the cops on black people for not doing anything serious
  • Some illegal aliens are angry that they have to be deported from the United States
  • The majority of the #metoo movement is nonsensical
However, I think some of your other premises are wrong, as well as your conclusion. For starters, Trump's presidency has actually created new jobs. For example, from the start of Trump's presidency to April 2019, five million new jobs appeared and the unemployment rate fell by 3.8% [1]. Also, the unemployment rate for African-Americans has been the lowest in history under Donald Trump [2]. So, the statement that no new jobs have been created under Trump is simply false.

Blue Lives Matter doesn't attempt to justify the crimes of police officers. It advocates for those who are convicted of killing law enforcement to be sentenced under hate crime statutes. I also don't understand why you consider it a "fraud". Maybe you could post some of those news stories that expose Blue Lives Matter? I tried to do some research about them lying but couldn't find anything.

A few random idiots calling the police on black people isn't proof that America is a "joke of a nation". The reason these stories are reported so much is because they are very rare. You don't hear news reports about things that happen everyday. If such incidents were indeed common, the news would find something else to report about. Just the fact that these stories are even reported proves that this is very rare and does not prove that America is a fallacy.

Every country has its problems. And so does the United States of America. But just because some problems exist, doesn't mean that the US is a "fallacy" or "a joke of a nation". Concerning Harvey Weinstein, not all charges were dropped, and everybody still thinks that Weinstein is a rapist. Regardless, the cases of Weinstein and Bill Cosby are different and cannot be compared. I didn't talk about Black Lives Matter and their agenda in this round, we can discuss this in the next one. Your floor.


Sources:


Round 2
Published:
I highly doubt that whites call the cops on blacks "sometimes." Consistency is a trend & ever since the Starbucks incident last year, whites have been consistently doing this. Rare?...It has gotten so ridiculous to where some states are passing legislation to punish the callers. If this is rare, then why aren't black people calling the cops on white people? It appears that you're making excuses because your white.

As far as Trump and employment, stats don't tell the full story. I'm sorry, but numbers on a spreadsheet don't actually reflect reality. Yes, maybe some sectors are inclining in jobs, but the vast majority of jobs aren't being produced. The US was once a big success in manufacturing, but those companies were sourced overseas, and they're not coming. It's not his fault, but Trump's a businessman & he knew that those manufacturing jobs weren't coming back because the labor is much cheaper in foreign countries. I'm black & visit random black communities in different states all the time. The jobs simply aren't there.

If the jobs were being produced, then America wouldn't be going through a retail apocalypse. A lack of money means a lack of buying & some of the high-profile companies are closing. https://www.businessinsider.com/retail-apocalypse-start-of-2019-more-store-closures-all-of-2018-2019-4 Just think about it for a second. That only represents the retail sector. 

You said that.. "Blue Lives Matter doesn't attempt to justify the crimes of police officers. It advocates for those who are convicted of killing law enforcement to be sentenced under hate crime statutes."...I totally disagree.

Blue Lives Matter was basically a response to Black Lives Matter. The same thing goes for quote-on-quote All Lives Matter. If this wasn't the case, then where were Blue Lives Matter & All Lives Matter before the Black Lives Matter movement started?...You won't find it because it didn't exist. 

If Blue Lives Matter isn't a fraud, then why does it (not) protect the black officers?

1. Proof? Minnesota Cop Mohamed Noor gets 12 years for fatally shooting white woman who banged on his patrol in the dead of night.
2. Proof? The Jeremy Mardis Case in Louisiana. Two black cops were charged with second-degree murder of a little buy who was riding with his father. His father was involved in assaulting a woman and continued in a high-speed case for two miles. 
3. Proof? The Botham Jean Case in Dallas. White policewoman fatally shoots black man by walking into the man's apartment.

The moral of the story is that Blue Lives Matter did absolutely nothing to protect the black officers, but have done everything to protect white officers, which makes it a Fraud. If you didn't know already, the white cop who choked & killed Eric Garner via an illegal choke-hold walked as a free man today...Despite being caught on camera.

As far as H. Weinstein, it doesn't matter what people think. What matters is that there is "audio evidence" of him stating his crimes. Yes, that's a fallacy

Published:
For some reason, you always dismiss credible statistics in favor of personal experience. When told that blacks commit more crime, you reply with "I see more white criminals in the news than black ones!" When told that five million jobs have been added under Trump, you reply with "I visited a few states and I didn't see any jobs!" You will need to provide some sorts of statistics to disprove what I'm saying. This is very important for our discussion to be productive.

The fact that states are making calling the police on blacks for no reason illegal actually disproves your point. If calling the cops on blacks is so normal and ordinary, why would it be illegal? If calling the cops on blacks is so normal and ordinary, why would it be reported in the news? Why would there be a massive outrage every time something like that happens?

Concerning the "retail apocalypse", one doesn't disprove the other. We can have a growing amount of jobs and economic problems in the retail sector, both at the same time. These statistics do not trump each other, they can co-exist perfectly well.

Yes, Blue Lives Matter is a response to Black Lives Matter. Or more specifically, it is a response to the murders of innocent cops by Black Lives Matter activists [1]. I never denied that Blue Lives Matter and All Lives Matter only appeared after the Black Lives Matter movement began to spread. This, however, is nothing bad and does not make Blue Lives Matter a fraud.

The cases you chose are very different and cannot be compared. The first two happened in 2017 and 2015 respectively, while the last one happened in 2019. These cases happened in different states which are thousands of miles away from each other. The one of them happened in a small town while the other two happened in large cities, where the Blue Lives Matter movement is more widespread. These cases are simply too different to compare.


Sources:
Round 3
Published:
I agree that stats can show a comparison or a contrasting in whatever subject, but you seem to base your arguments on numbers rather than seeing what's actually happening in society. I did say that some sectors of business could have an incline in jobs, but on an overall level, the jobs aren't there. Since you said that I don't post sources, check out https://www.cbsnews.com/news/manufacturing-jobs-erie-pennsylvania-redefining-hope/ Now that you have the facts, are you even aware that foreign labor is much cheaper than domestic labor? If these companies were moral, then they would come back to the US to supply our citizens with jobs. Reality is simple, and it's all about making the most money in the end.

In addition to that, automation is killing jobs that were once held by actual people.

My opponent asked " If calling the cops on blacks is so normal and ordinary, why would it be illegal? If calling the cops on blacks is so normal and ordinary, why would it be reported in the news? Why would there be a massive outrage every time something like that happens?"

My reply: "Making false claims against someone is illegal to a certain degree." I'm not going to entertain the nonsense because you, myself and everyone else know what the deal is. The outrage is coming from the group of people that are getting victimized. Of course, whites don't care because their not getting victimized. If the shoe was on the other foot, you'd be singing a different tune...
As I stated, the hypocrisy is unreal. You people claim to be such good Christians, but you do not practice what your preach. Let's see what the good old Christian Bible says..."You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"...Exodus 20:16

Ok, so name one member of Black Lives Matter that killed a cop? I'll wait...…………………………

I'm still waiting for you to answer the Blue Lives Matter questions from my previous argument. Oh that's right! You won't answer because it will prove that Blue Lives Matter is a FRAUD. Everything else you're saying about this topic is nothing more than rambling excuses. 

And I'm still waiting for you to answer the Bill Cosby/Harvey Weinstein questions also. Of course, not answering questions seems to be your (MO) Method of Operation because the facts/evidence is destroying your argument. .

You've also not answered, yet again, to the fake patriotism facts that I've presented in the opening statement.
Published:
I don't know why you keep denying reality. The number of jobs in the United States has increased by over five million since Trump got in office. This is an economic fact. Your personal experience does not trump this statistic, and neither does an article which is unrelated to this statistic. But enough of this argument, we are getting nowhere.

You said that "the outrage is coming from the group of people that are getting victimized". That is certainly not true. I am not black, but I am still outraged at all the cases of whites calling police on blacks for no reason whatsoever. You don't have to be a victim of an injustice to be outraged about that injustice; for example, I never lived under the Nazi regime but I am still outraged by the crimes the Nazis commited.

I don't know who "you people" are. I certainly do not claim to be a good Christian (ahem.. theAtheist?), and I don't bear false witness against my neighbours. And I'm certainly not hypocritical. Please don't generalize people on the basis of skin color.

If I was making excuses, I would agree with what you are saying. I'm not agreeing with your premise: that America is a joke and that Blue Lives Matter is a fraud. Concerning Cosby and Weinstein, these are two different cases, just like the three cases you presented of cops killing civillians. You cannot compare different cases and then cry out "racism!". Try again.


You asked me to do two things in your R3 argument: to name black cops protected by Blue Lives Matter and to name cops killed by Black Lives Matter. Here:

A Black Lives Matter supporter killing cops:
Americans are not standing up to your "injustice" because this injustice doesn't exist. Where is the fake patriotism again, exactly?
Round 4
Published:
In conclusion, my opponent is still refusing to answer the (specific) questions that I've asked. He's giving answers to questions that were never asked. I asked specific questions and he tap danced around them as usual because he know that he can't find any justification for his lack of argument. He keeps talking about the statistics of 5 million-added jobs during Trump's era, which could be true.

One the other hand, he fails to realize that in 2015, manufacturing employment lost over 7, 231,000 jobs. Yes, that's more than 7 million lost jobs since manufacturing was at its peak and that's just in One Sector of Business. Source? CNSNews.com. Imagine the total number of lost jobs across the board, then compare it to Trump's reported 5 million-added jobs. This is why I keep telling him to quit pulling random stats because stats Do Not tell the entire story.

My opponent goes on tell me that I shouldn't generalize people on the basis of skin color, but it's his fellow race of people who have built a comfortable lifestyle from generalizing others...That my friend is the very definition of the term hypocrite.

As far as you classifying yourself as atheist; that's your prerogative but you can't really create something from nothing. The hair on your head to the sound of your voice was created by something. I'm pretty sure that you or anything else didn't just explode out of thin air & into existence...….but If you actually exploded out of thin air & into existence; I'd simply ask you "who or what created the air that you manifested from?" 

Here's how illogical my opponent truly is. This is exactly what he just said. "If I was making excuses, I would agree with what you are saying."...Huh?

Sir...Making excuses is what someone does when they Do Not agree or Can't provide a sound argument...I'm literally speechless after hearing that.

I've proved facts that Blue Lives Matter is a Fraud, which is why you refuse to answer the (specific) questions. Here are some examples to why people all over the globe label America as a joke.

1. White woman calls the cops on 11-year-old girl for selling lemonade on the sidewalk.
2. White man calls the cops on Black man for picking up trash in his front yard.
3. White woman calls the cops on a 13-year-old boy for dribbling a basketball down the street.
4. White policewoman barges into a random Black man's apartment, shoots/kills him & says she thought that she was in her own apartment despite the fact that her key is only designed to unlock her actual apartment door.
5. White policeman shoots/kills 10-year-old Black kid (Tamir Rice) at a playground because someone said the kid had a gun.

I rest my case.


Published:
In his opening argument, my opponent asked: 

Where are those thousands of job positions that Trump was suppose to be bringing back to the US?
And I answered his question: five million new jobs have been added to the US economy since Trump became president. He then proceeds to pull out a statistic from 2015, before Trump was even president, that shows a decrease of jobs in one economic sector. Not the economy as a whole, but the manufacting sector specifically.  This does not prove his claim that Trump has failed to deliver new jobs to the economy as a whole - because the Donald obviously has, judging from the statistics I have provided.

I don't know how being white and being against racism makes me hypocritical. My race does not matter and does not determine my political views. Just because other white people have done racist things, does not mean that I am racist or a bad person. My opponent does not understand this for some reason, it has to be repeated to him over and over. He is commiting what's called The Association Fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy). It goes like this:

P1: Person A is a white person
P2: Person A is a racist person
C: Therefore, all white people are racist.

Just because other white people have done racist things does not make me racist. I could use this faulty logic and say that my opponent is a criminal: Bill Cosby is black and Bill Cosby is a criminal, so all black people are criminals! This is obviously wrong and racist. I find it bizzare that my opponent calls me a hypocrite while being hypocritical himself. He claims to be against racism yet his statements are constantly showing otherwise.

Making excuses means trying to justify something bad. I am not justifying anything that my opponent has said. This argument is about whether or not the things he has said is true. The dictionary is your friend. Use it.

I don't know what questions that I never answered my opponent is refering to. He asked me to show cases of Black Lives Matter killing cops, I did. He asked me to show cases of Blue Lives Matter protecting black cops, I did. He asked me to explain why Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein are being treated differently, I did. Just because you do not like my answer doesn't mean that it's not there.

My opponent finishes off with a few cases of racism in the United States. Because of these few cases, he claims that "people all over the globe label America as a joke." Who labels America as a joke? How do they label America as a joke? You think that other countries don't have racism? The US is nowhere near the top 25 racist countries of the world (https://businesstech.co.za/news/lifestyle/116644/the-most-racist-countries-in-the-world/). A few of my opponent's premises are right, but the conclusion is complete and utter bullshit. 

I thought this was going to be a discussion, but apparently it is a debate as users can vote. Well, what can I say? Vote for the guy with the best arguments, see you later, it was good having a discussion with my opponent. TheAtheist out.
Added:
--> @RationalMadman
I appreciate it. I just need to get some things off my chest.
Instigator
#2
Added:
--> @mairj23
Words cannot express how much I agree with everything you wrote in your description.
#1
#1
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
Interpreting the resolution:
As best I can make sense of it, pro started a debate to try to prove that the USA is not a nation.
Gist:
Pro has a problem with social science, yet wants to complain about societal aspects on the basis of having cognitive dissonance (dismissing math due to disliking the results not being what he or she wants them to be...).
1. Racist Phone Calls: tie
Pro says it happens, con agrees it sometimes happens, to which pro attempts reverse psychology to insist it either does not happen at all or that every white person is always doing it. The latter makes no sense given the employment rates.
Labeling this a tie due to zero impact on the resolution (as was revealed, some statistically negligible number of people have made bad phone calls, which says nothing of the nation other than there are people in it).
2. Jobs: con
The president of the nation promised to create thousands of jobs, con points out he outperformed that promise, and pro insists it does not count as honoring a promise (to use a quick analogy, if your friend borrows $20 but pays you back $1000, pro would insist they still owe the $20). It gets pretty funny from there, such as pro insisting that Trump and Obama are secretly the same person (that would be a good debate topic)...
2. Blue Lives Matter: con
Basically, pro tries to prove not knowing the definition of fraud... Back and forth, but no attempt to reach BoP for this (if a fraud, who is defrauded and in what way?). Pro insists if a police officer is black, they don’t care, but con literally shows on their website them paying respects to a fallen black officer, to which pro insists that never happened due to pro’s cognitive dissonance not allowing it...
3. Con did not answer questions: con
“my opponent is still refusing to answer the (specific) questions that I've asked” which was pre-refuted by the questions being answered, and further refuted with this summary: “Just because you do not like my answer doesn't mean that it's not there.”
This was basically just pro asking to be penalized on conduct.
---
Arguments:
See above review of key points.
Conduct:
Pro tried to end the debate by lying about the debate content. I see this happen a lot online, seemingly because people think what actually happened in the text format can’t be verified with CTRL+F.