Points: 8

The struggle of transgender people is severely comparable to the struggle that people who have a very peculiar accent and ethnicity, when compared with their physical race, go through in life.

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After 11 votes the winner is ...
Ramshutu
Debate details
Publication date
Last update
Category
Society
Time for argument
Three days
Voting system
Open voting
Voting period
One month
Point system
Four points
Rating mode
Rated
Characters per argument
30,000
Contender
Points: 75
Description
I'm gonna go full right wing conservative on this shit but in a trans-friendly way. You're going to see me go so ham you don't even know which way to turn to win the debate.
This is about someone like Collie Buddz but a more extreme example. They exist, and yes I'll show remote examples but most are too shy of a camera etc to truly admit how they feel. I am talking about a white guy, straight up white physically but grew up in India has the whole accent, head-nod everything. Try seeing him take a flight to another nation and walk into an Indian neighbourhood there and do those moves or that accent... Think he can even get a job? They think he's racist and mocking them no matter what right? So, he goes to a plastic surgeon and says 'why must i fight all that feels natural to me? I don't want to change my accent, my way of shaking my head like a brown Indian when I talk or any of it... Please can you change my race?!" And the surgeon rings up his Politically Correct Media friends and say 'OMG! Fascist mocks the struggle of Transgenders!"..
Actually, you just mocked his struggle as a transethnic. That's what I'm gonna prove here. Race, age, it's as set in stone as gender meaning not that we need to ban transgenders but that we should start to grasp the ignorance and prejudice of terms like 'cultural appropriation' and start aiming for the one world globalist regime once and for all!
Round 1
Published:
I can't put this Round in time, the struggle is the same because society pressures one to be the type of something that they're not due to physical features associated with that type. I'll see what Con brings and fully build a case in R2 that both attacks and defends.
Published:
I would like to thank my opponent for this debate.

As pro effectively forfeited the opening round without providing an argument, I will be treating the definition of this debate as pros opening argument.

0.) Resolution

This debate is whether the struggle of the Transgender is “severely comparable” to that of the Trans Ethnic (TE)

For it to be “severely comparable”, Pro must show that the natureseverity and extent of their suffering and hardship experienced as they go through their lives - the struggle - must be broadly similar. 

Simply having similar problems on its own does not make the struggles “severely comparable” - the degree of suffering needs to be similar : One cannot say the struggles of being short is “severely comparable” to being handicapped. Similar issues - different extents.

1.) Baseless Assertion.

Pros argument hinges around a baseless assertion: that TE exists as described and that there is a substantial struggle for such individuals related to their accent being different from their race.

Given pros only concrete example is of a successful musician - it is unclear of pros example demographic is mistreated in the way he claims or even exists to any meaningful degree.

2.) Transgender suffer more.

Assuming pros hypothetical example exists, it’s clear that the transgender are subject to more substantial suffering within society in the following ways:

Legislation: There is legislation in multiple countries that prohibit the free expression of Gender that explicitly target the transgender[1]. This includes several states in the US[2]. There are also various laws that limit the ability or rights of the transgender, for example the federal government relating to service in the military.[3]

Violence: The transgender population are significantly more at risk of being victims of sexual assault [4], violent crime and murder[5][6] - with nearly 50%[4] chance of being victims of sexual assault in their lifetime.

Rates of Suicide: The Transgender are subject to far, far higher rates of suicide, self harm and mental illness than the normal population, or the rest of the LGBTQ community.[7]

Hostility and Social opposition: In the west, there is mounting social opposition to transgender rights - often being declared as “unnatural”[8]; this has included anti-transgender rallies[9], and an actively hostile president.[10]

I have found no sources or evidence of any kind that any of these issues are present in any demographics pro is referencing: and there is no reason to presume that such issues would present themselves to even close to this degree. 

There are no anti-TE laws, no examples of severe mental illness, self harm, suicide, violence, or objectively measurable hostility from society.

I would encourage pro to provide evidence of such comparable examples in his demographic.

3.) Suffering of TE individuals is limited.

It is reasonable to presume that most people would accept the explanation “I was educated and spent all my life in india” as an explanation of an Indian accent - without evidence it cannot be considered that there is a likely substantial detriment to individuals.

While it’s possible that some individuals may be mocked, or accused of being racist - this clearly falls way short of anything presented above.

4.) Differences in Management

We are more attached to our physical appearance as part of our identity than to our accent given the ubiquity of accent coaches and lessons.[11]

Resolving TE is easiest to resolve simply by accent modification that involves a small time and monetary investment - and can even be done online - after which there are no residual problems.[11]

Issues with being Transgender take multiple years, irreversible invasive surgery and a lifetime of hormone treatment to resolve - and stillend up being subject to all the issues listed above.[12]

5.) The internal issues are clearly not comparable.

The major issue of being Transgender is the psychological issues related to being inability to accept ones own body and sex.[13]

The issue of TE is not an issue of being unable to accept oneself (as we are generally unaware of our own accent), but  either being concerned with how others will view you; or issues with how others treat you.

The latter is a common struggle applicable to almost everything in life. Too short, too small, big teeth, etc. The former is quite uncommon, and much more psychologically profound internalized lack of acceptance.

As a result, the two things are fundamentally different and thus incomparable.

Conclusion

The conclusion here is simple. The data clearly shows that there is a substantial struggle in being transgender, violence death, suicide and society being fundamentally hostile to your existence and is incredibly hard to resolve to the point one is comfortable with themselves; even though such solutions will not prevent the other issues. There is no evidence that there is any wide reaching issues for TE at all - leave alone to as significant degree as described.


Sources:






Round 2
Forfeited
Published:
In the absence of my opponent providing an argument that either attacks or defends, I will extend my arguments to the next round.
Round 3
Published:
The law point is irrefutable. I have lost the debate.
Published:
I graciously accept my opponents concession.

Vote for Con!
Round 4
Published:
                                                                                                                                                               
Published:
Vote con.
Added:
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments ✗ ✗ ✔ 3 points
Better sources ✗ ✗ ✔ 2 points
Better spelling and grammar ✗ ✗ ✔ 1 point
Better conduct ✔ ✗ ✗ 1 point
Reason: PRO concedes. Conduct to PRO, all other points to CON
#33
Added:
--> @Dynasty
Doesn't mean they are the same.
If that is your argument then life and death are related.
Are they the same?
#32
Added:
--> @TheRealNihilist
Gender and sex are related.
#31
Added:
--> @Dynasty
Gender is environment.
Sex is biological.
We wouldn't have two words that pretty much mean the same thing if that was the case.
>>Do you know that transgenderism is a mental disorder?
Do you know that this isn't true?
Gender dysphoria is the problem.
Transgender is just a label like man and woman.
The ism depends on which thing you follow. I don't really know the ism with it comes to transgender so it can open to who defines it. Care to tell me what transgenderism is?
#30
Added:
--> @TheRealNihilist
Gender is not a social construct, it's biological. Also, I have a question. Do you know that transgenderism is a mental disorder?
#29
Added:
--> @Dynasty
No you don't and your lack of clarification does imply you can't actually explain yourself.
#28
Added:
--> @TheRealNihilist
I know what I'm talking about.
#27
Added:
--> @Alec
>>Men on average have more muscle, they tend to run faster and punch harder. This is due to a testosterone advantage that men have over women 42 fold.
Biology is sex.
Gender is social.
Testosterone differences would only matter if all men have higher testosterone but they don't. Women can have more than men which means the biological aspect of sex doesn't neuter what people do with their lives.
Saying x on average has more than y isn't an argument that there are entire class differences. You are just simply stating on average x has more than y. This can't be extrapolated to meaning the entire x is different to the entirety y because that would mean it wouldn't be based on average, it would be based on x having more than y not on average.
Do you have clear data which states all men have something women don't that isn't biological? If you don't then gender is based on what people do with their lives. This can be how they socially behave and other environmental things.
#26
Added:
--> @TheRealNihilist
>>Men equal facial hair and women equal long hair. These are based on the society which is why it is a social construct. Both the label and gender is a social construct.
There are other differences between men and women other than their hair styles. Men on average have more muscle, they tend to run faster and punch harder. This is due to a testosterone advantage that men have over women 42 fold.
#25
Added:
--> @Alec
>>Not accurate.
How?
>>Language is a social construct, but gender isin´t. All labels and all words are social constructs, but the concept of gender, rather than the actual word is not a social construct.
You have agreed the label is a social construct. I will move on to gender. Gender is a social construct because it si based on what is socially agreed upon what is a man and a woman. Men equal facial hair and women equal long hair. These are based on the society which is why it is a social construct. Both the label and gender is a social construct.
#24
Added:
--> @TheRealNihilist
>>Man and woman are social construct because gender is a social construct.
Not accurate.
>> It is labels we ascribe to things like chairs. tables etc.
Language is a social construct, but gender isin´t. All labels and all words are social constructs, but the concept of gender, rather than the actual word is not a social construct.
#23
Added:
--> @Alec
>>Gender is not a social construct
Social construct: an idea that has been created and accepted by the people in a society Class distinctions are a social construct.
Man and woman are social construct because gender is a social construct. It is labels we ascribe to things like chairs. tables etc. Those differences don't state otherwise. I am specifically talking about the labels.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/social%20construct
>>It´s like saying that working out will make you better at sports. Is it hard? Yes.
You don't have evidence and resort to a random answered question. I'll ask again do you have evidence?
#22
Added:
--> @TheRealNihilist
Gender is not a social construct, so dynasty was right about that. The NIH confirms various differences between men and women. If gender were a social construct, then why would transgenders be commiting suicide over something that they believe is a nominal difference; gender/sex?
>>Do you have evidence for this solution?
It´s like saying that working out will make you better at sports. Is it hard? Yes. Do most people not want to do it? Yes. If you want to change from LGBT to straight and cis, just as if an out of shape person could become in shape, is it possible with effort? Yes. I don´t want to make conversion therapy required under law, but it definitely should be an option for adults that consent for religious reasons or any other reason.
#21
Added:
--> @Dynasty
Welcome another person who doesn't know what they are talking about.
#20
Added:
Genders is not a social construct. And, transgenderism is a mental disorder.
#19
#11
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
RFD in comments
#10
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
forfeit
#9
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
Concession, sadly. I was looking forward to reading this debate.
#8
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
Concession.
#7
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
Concession
#6
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
RationalMadman was very gracious.
#5
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
I press F for RM's F
FF
#4
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
Concession
#3
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
Concession
#2
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
C
#1
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
Concession.