Instigator

Democratic Party vs Republican Party

Debating

Waiting for contender's argument

The round will be automatically forfeited in:
00:00:00:00
Debate details
Publication date
Last update
Category
Religion
Time for argument
One week
Voting system
Open voting
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Four points
Rating mode
Rated
Characters per argument
15,000
Description
Intro
I would like to thank YitzGoldberg for agreeing to debate this topic with me. This debate is about which party's ideology and policies best match that of the Torah
Full Topic
The Democratic Party is closer to the Torah's ideal than the Republican Party
Structures
R1: Opening arguments
R2: Rebuttals
R3: Defense
R4: Close
Round 1
Published:
I would like to begin by thanking YitzGoldberg for accepting this debate.
 
I. What this debate is about
 
Just so the voters are clear, this debate is about which party’s policies and ideologies come closest to matching that of the Torah. The Torah should be defined as the entire body of Jewish literature. In my opening arguments, I will be focusing on the main four issues: 1) Health care, 2) Minimum Wage; 3) Immigration; and 4) Democracy
 
II. Health Care
 
Throughout the Torah, we are commanded to care for the widow, the orphan, the stranger, and to guard our health and our brother’s blood. Let’s first explore some texts and then get into the policy nitty-gritty.
 
Rambam Mishneh Torah
It is a positive Torah command to remove any stumbling block that poses a danger to life, to be watchful of it and be extremely careful of it, as it is said: “Be very careful and guard your life.
 
Since maintaining a healthy and sound body is among the ways of G‑d—for one cannot understand or have any knowledge of the Creator, if he is ill—therefore, he must avoid that which harms the body and accustom himself to that which is healthful and helps the body become stronger
 
Talmud Sanhedrin 17b
A scholar is forbidden to live in any town that does not have these ten things: a court, a charity fund, a synagogue, a bathhouse, a latrine, a doctor, a bloodletter, a scribe, a kosher butcher and a teacher of children.
 
It is clear that the Torah places an obligation for the sick to seek healthcare and for the physicians to provide healthcare. Thus we can conclude that the government has a moral obligation to seek to it that everyone has access to affordable care. The Medicare for All bill supported by Sanders, Warren, et. al. will do just that. Here are some statistics that should alarm all of us:
 
Fact 1: More people are uninsured than when Trump took office [1]
Fact 2: A 2009 study showed that 45,000 Americans die due to the lack of health coverage [2]
Fact 3: The New England Journal of Medicine found that states that expanded Medicaid significantly reduced mortality rate and improved access to care [3]
Fact 4: The cost of lifesaving medicine such as insulin and EpiPen’s have significantly increased over the past few years. Indeed, one family saw their EpiPen cost rise 400% [4] and several people died due to rationing insulin [5]
Fact 5: Medicare for all will significantly reduce deaths, significantly reduce cost, and provide access to care for everyone who needs it [6] [7].
 
What have Republicans proposed? Absolutely nothing. In fact, they tried to repeal Obamacare 70 times without even proposing a better plan [8].
Medicare for all fulfills the Torah obligation to guard our health and the health of our citizens. Democrats have fought for minimum wage increases while Republicans have consistently opposed it.
 
III. Minimum Wage
 
Deuteronomy 24:14-15
You shall not withhold the wages of a poor or destitute hired worker, of your brothers or of your strangers who are in your land within your cities. You shall give him his wage on his day and not let the sun set over it, for he is poor, and his life depends on them, so that he should not cry out to the Lord against you, so that there should be sin upon you.
 
Leviticus 19:13
You shall not oppress your fellow. You shall not rob. The hired worker's wage shall not remain with you overnight until morning.
 
Psalm 128
When you eat from the work of your hands, you will be happy, and it will be well with you
 
Talmud Nedarim 49b
Rabbi Yehuda used to go into the Beit Midrash carrying a pitcher on his shoulders. He would say, 'Great is work, as it gives honor to the one who does it.' Rabbi Shimon would carry a basket on his shoulders and would say, 'Great is work, as it gives honor to the one who does it. '" (b. Nedarim 49b)
 
RAMBAM Laws of Charity
The greatest level, above which there is no greater, is to support a fellow Jew by endowing him with a gift or loan, or entering into a partnership with him, or finding employment for him, in order to strengthen his hand so that he will not need to be dependent upon others . . .
 
From these texts we can conclude the following:
 
1.     Work is dignifying
2.     Work is the greatest form of charity
3.     It is a positive commandment to work
4.     The employer has a positive commandment to give his worker’s wages on time.
5.     Wages should be enough to be a “living wage,” i.e. enough to live off of without depending on others
 
Now let’s bring in some facts about the minimum wage.
 
Fact 1: The minimum wage is $7.25 and has been that way since 2009.
Fact 2: Nowhere in America can you afford a modest 2-bedroom on minimum wage [9]
Fact 3: Adjusted for inflation, the minimum wage is worth significantly less than it has been in the past. Indeed, the highest the minimum wage has been (in 2016 dollars) was 8.68 in 1968 [10].
Fact 4: Had minimum wage kept up with productivity rates, the minimum wage would be $18.42 [11]
Fact 5: The average age of the minimum wage worker is 36 years old. [Ibid]
Fact 6: 28% of minimum wage workers have children [Ibid].
Fact 7: Minimum wage improves the economy and reduces worker’s needs to public assistance [12] [3]
 
Increasing the minimum wage to a living wage fulfills the Torah’s obligation to care for our employees and improve their dignity via work. Democrats are fulfilling this obligation while Republicans are opposing this.
 
IV. Immigration
 
Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free
 
Exodus 22:20
You shall not wrong a stranger or oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt
 
Exodus 23:9
You shall not oppress a stranger, for you know the soul of the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt
 
Leviticus 19:24
The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as one of your citizens; you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt
 
I could cite dozens of other texts about immigration, but the Torah is unanimous that we must love the immigrant since we were strangers in the land of Egypt. We ought to love them as ourselves and not wrong them. Now let’s bring in some facts.
 
Fact 1: Undocumented immigrants pay $12 billion in taxes per year [14]
Fact 2: Immigrants are less likely to be incarcerated than native-born Americans and that there is a negative correlation between levels of immigration and crime rates [15]
Fact 3: Immigrant owned businesses employ 8 million Americans and have a purchasing power of $ 1.1 trillion [16]
Fact 4: US law states that in order to seek refugee or asylum status, you have to be physically present in the United States regardless of your legal status or how you got here. [17]
Fact 5: Migrants are fleeing violence and seeking a better life. Because you have to be physically present in the United States, the “children in cages” are following the law. [18]
Fact 6: Trump and others have called immigrants an invasion and have constantly spoken dangerous lies about these migrants. As a result, the El Paso shooter systematically targeted Mexicans and blamed Trump for his actions [19].
 
The conclusion of these facts shows that we must love and care for the stranger. The United States has a moral obligation to welcome immigrants fleeing violence in their community, especially because the United States is responsible for the crisis and violence [20] [21].
 
Democrats are fulfilling the mitzvah to love and welcome the stranger while Republicans are violating that mitzvah.
 
V. Democracy
 
Berakhot 55
With regard to Bezalel’s appointment, Rabbi Yitzḥak said: One may only appoint a leader over a community if he consults with the community and they agree to the appointment, as it is stated: “And Moses said unto the children of Israel: See, the Lord has called by name Bezalel, son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah” (Exodus 35:30). The Lord said to Moses: Moses, is Bezalel a suitable appointment in your eyes? Moses said to Him: Master of the universe, if he is a suitable appointment in Your eyes, then all the more so in my eyes. The Holy One, Blessed be He, said to him: Nevertheless, go and tell Israel and ask their opinion. Moses went and said to Israel: Is Bezalel suitable in your eyes? They said to him: If he is suitable in the eyes of the Holy One, Blessed be He, and in your eyes, all the more so he is suitable in our eyes.
 
Democracy is the heart of our country. As such, we ought to increase that democracy and ensure that every American can have equal say in our government. Democrats have made numerous proposals to increase democracy. Democrats have made a modest proposal to make election day a national holiday. Mitch McConnell called this a “Democratic power grab.” [22] Democrats have also made modest proposals like same-day voter registration, automatic voter registration, voting by mail, and many others. Each of them was opposed by Republicans. Republicans have made it harder to vote by passing voter ID that makes it harder for minorities and seniors to vote [23]
 
VI. Conclusion
 
I examined 4 major issues that we are facing today and compared them to the Torah. Democratic policy wins on each of these major issues.
 
Please vote pro.  
 
Sources
1. https://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2019/aug/13/tammy-baldwin/us-sen-baldwin-right-more-americans-are-without-he/
2. https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/
3. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa1202099
4. https://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/insulin-new-epipen-families-facing-sticker-shock-over-400-percent-n667536
5. https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/pharmacy/21-year-old-died-after-rationing-insulin-family-says.html
6. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/12/medicare-for-all-study-peri-sanders
7. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/04/medicare-for-all-health-care-churn
8. https://www.newsweek.com/gop-health-care-bill-repeal-and-replace-70-failed-attempts-643832
9. https://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2019/jul/30/bobby-scott/scotts-right-modest-two-bedroom-apartments-not-aff/
10. https://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2019/jul/30/bobby-scott/scotts-right-modest-two-bedroom-apartments-not-aff/
11. https://aflcio.org/2016/5/25/10-facts-minimum-wage
12. https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/07/08/its-not-just-paychecks-surprising-society-wide-benefits-raising-minimum-wage/
13. https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/04/minimum-wage-by-state-jobs-data-employment-economic-research/587992/
14. https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2016/oct/02/maria-teresa-kumar/how-much-do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-taxes/
15. https://www.adl.org/resources/fact-sheets/myths-and-facts-about-immigrants-and-immigration-en-espanol
16. https://www.newamericaneconomy.org/press-release/new-data-shows-immigrant-owned-businesses-employed-8-million-americans-immigrants-wield-1-1-trillion-in-spending-power/
17. https://it.usembassy.gov/embassy-consulates/rome/sections-offices/dhs/uscis/refugeesasylum/
18. https://www.amnestyusa.org/fleeing-for-our-lives-central-american-migrant-crisis/
19. https://theintercept.com/2019/08/05/el-paso-gunmans-fear-migrant-invasion-echoed-donald-trump-fox-news/
20. https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/10/29/american-policy-is-responsible-migrant-caravan/
21. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/dec/19/central-america-migrants-us-foreign-policy
22. https://www.vox.com/2019/1/30/18203936/mitch-mcconnell-election-day-federal-holiday
23. https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-sheet

Published:

Resolve: Judaism ≠ the Democratic Party and Here's Why...

I want to first thank my opponent, Virtuoso, for agreeing to debate with me on such an important issue. Jews grow up in America thinking that everyone must be liberal, and if you're conservative, you're a Nazi. Somehow, these two things correlate together as if by Divine decree. Well, I'm here to tell you that that's false. And by false, I mean a-hundred-percent false. "But that's not Jewish!" I hear that from so many people all the time, and I ask them, "so I'm no longer Jewish if I'm conservative? Tell that to 64% of Israeli Jews" [1]. Now, I get it, there are more liberal Jews here in America, but by and large, generation Z is the most conservative generation ever in the history of the United States [2]. So what does that tell us? What does conservatism have to offer which liberalism lacks, and why are so many turning to it? Well, for one, 78% of conservatives in this country are people of faith [3]. One in six Jews are Republican [4]. Obviously, they're from the Haredi world. We all know who these people are, they're the most authentic Torah Jews in the world. These people give the most tzedakah, they even dress modestly! So maybe we should listen to them? Maybe we should hear them out once in a while? Most all Jews who join the Democratic party have assimilated in some way and hold fast to secular values, so how can they be keeping Torah? [5] Liberals mistrust authority, well, G-d IS authority. An observant Jew is to give up everything for G-d. He is first and foremost a Jew, then he's a doctor, or a journalist, whatever he does for a living because being Jewish is a full-time occupation.
But of course liberals have their shining moments. Of course Karl Marx meant well. The problem is, we're talking about reality here, not a utopia. The Left has goon too radical. Everyone suddenly needs rights. Already, there are heads voicing rights for pedophiles [6], claiming it to merely be another form of sexual orientation. I ask you, did the Torah command such? Do you want your kids growing up in such a world where they can be assaulted? What about incest and beastialty? Where do we draw the line, Virtuoso? Is there a line to draw at all?

If the Democratic party is so Torah-driven, why do they criticize abortion? Have you put an ounce of thought into this? You seem like a smart guy, you surely must have, so what's your answer? Not long ago, a bill was opposed just by one vote! That bill was going to give mothers the right, in the state of Virginia, to abort newborn babies. Do you expect me to somehow believe this is sanctioned by Torah? How have we, as a collective melting-pot, gone so low? Perhaps it's overpopulation? Have you heard of the Rat Paradise experiment? It took place in the 60s, and it's what we're going to face soon [8]. A grim reality. So perhaps that's why mothers will put their children to death without remorse? Now, I'm aware that Judaism allows abortion under extreme circumstances, but one thing is sure, you sure can't have one if you were merely irresponsible.

But these are just a few examples of how Republican beliefs align with Torah. Wait, I've got one last thing to say before I give the baton back to my opponent....

Earlier, I made mention of liberal Jews holding to the mistaken assumption that conservatism equates to Nazism. I'm aware that to some, it may not be apparent why. Jews who grew up after the Holocaust witnessed extreme forms of anti-Semitism. They equated Hitler with capitalism and Republican values, somehow forgetting that Hitler's party was called National Socialism. To a point, this was acceptable, but now the Left has grown far more dangerous than the anti-Semites of the Right and that's because they've managed to hide all their blatant hatred against Israel (= Jews) under some clever umbrella terms. Terms such as anti-colonialism, White privilege, and the rhetoric of human rights.

Keep in mind, dear readers, that the Right isn't drawing closer to Fascism, it's liberals. How can I make such an astounding claim? Well, just ask yourself, which side is suppressing information? Which side demands that you follow its dogmatic currency as if it were some kind of faith? Which side has criticized the freedom of speech, to fact-check, and see opposing views? Liberals! Guess what, Hitler suppressed information and the right to fact-check. Hitler criticized his opponents and made sure the masses didn't look the other way. That's the irony of it all, and I didn't even have to quote the Torah once because that's not necessary, we know the basics, we know what it says and its merely reinterpretation when one attempts to align Torah with Socialist values, values which aren't there in the book given to us at Sinai.

Well, thank you so much for putting up with me, I now pass the baton....

Sources:



Round 2
Published:
Thank you for your response and I hope you had a great Shabbos. 

I. Tips to Con

Your arguments were rather difficult to follow given the format that you presented your arguments in. I strongly recommend that you read Ragnar's DAART style guide found here: http://tiny.cc/DebateArt.

II. Word Salads

There are several sentences that Con writes that are complete word salads or fragments: 

  • I want to first thank my opponent, Virtuoso, for agreeing to debate with me on such an important issue. Jews grow up in America thinking that everyone must be liberal, and if you're conservative, you're a Nazi. Somehow, these two things correlate together as if by Divine decree. Well, I'm here to tell you that that's false. 
  • But of course liberals have their shining moments. (This is a sentence fragment) 
  • If the Democratic party is so Torah-driven, why do they criticize abortion? Have you put an ounce of thought into this? You seem like a smart guy, you surely must have, so what's your answer?
  • Do you expect me to somehow believe this is sanctioned by Torah? How have we, as a collective melting-pot, gone so low? Perhaps it's overpopulation? Have you heard of the Rat Paradise experiment? It took place in the 60s, and it's what we're going to face soon
  • Keep in mind, dear readers, that the Right isn't drawing closer to Fascism, it's liberals. How can I make such an astounding claim? Well, just ask yourself, which side is suppressing information? Which side demands that you follow its dogmatic currency as if it were some kind of faith? Which side has criticized the freedom of speech, to fact-check, and see opposing views? Liberals
  • To a point, this was acceptable, but now the Left has grown far more dangerous than the anti-Semites of the Right and that's because they've managed to hide all their blatant hatred against Israel (= Jews) under some clever umbrella terms. Terms such as anti-colonialism, White privilege, and the rhetoric of human rights.
These sentences are really hard to understand and follow. I literally have absolutely no idea what you are saying or how you are connecting this to the Torah. Since this debate is primarily Torah focused, it is imperative that you present Torah sources to support your claims as I did in R1. Nonetheless, I will try to do the best I can to respond to your arguments. 

Respectfully, I don't know where to begin. I strongly recommend reformatting your arguments. 
Not published yet
Round 3
Not published yet
Not published yet
Round 4
Not published yet
Not published yet
Added:
--> @YitzGoldberg
Thank you for sharing your thinking. I think we are mostly in agreement. Though I think that the Torah takes a republican view in some issues and a more democratic one in others.
#15
Added:
--> @Virtuoso
I noticed a typo on my end: I meant to say that Democrats are for abortion, not against it. That aside, I should have taken more time to write out a more thorough argument in favor of Torah-Republican values. I was a little rushed, I’ll admit, but I promise that my next round will be much, much better. With that said, I feel that my argument against abortion (aside for later rebuttals), is, so far, the strongest. I look forward to your response in the debate.
Contender
#14
Added:
I think Virt will win, although I don't know too much about the Torah.
#13
Added:
--> @Virtuoso
You better not forfeit!
#12
Added:
--> @bmdrocks21
hmmm, I am afraid I cant do this one, they both forfeit a lot and are pretty good, I don't want to ruin my 4-0 streak!
#11
Added:
--> @Dr.Franklin
In your professional opinion, who has the easy W in this debate?
#10
Added:
--> @bmdrocks21
always bad,always racist always sexist,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqqwTgk8ri0
#9
Added:
--> @Dr.Franklin
Orange man very bad indeed. REEEEEE
#8
Added:
--> @bmdrocks21
orange man automatically bad
#7
Added:
--> @Dr.Franklin
Religion and Politics isn't as bad as orange man!!!!111!!
#6
Added:
ewww, very bad no no Religion and Politics
Also, A GAY JEW, this website has lost it's mind
#5
Added:
--> @Virtuoso
Thank you for sharing your thinking. I think we are mostly in agreement concerning the Torah’s view. Though it could be argued that the Torah sides with the republicans on some issues but, that is the job of the opposite (me), in which I will add in rd1 trm.
Contender
#4
Added:
--> @Jonathan-Horowitz
That was the original topic, but we realized it was way too broad so we narrowed it down some.
Instigator
#3
Added:
--> @Virtuoso
If you realize that Republican policies are closer to Jewish teachings, will you convert? :^)
#2
Added:
--> @YitzGoldberg
Interesting but I thought this was going to be about the Talmud's view of socialism or capitalism, though. Nevertheless, I look forward to this debate.
#1
No votes yet