Instigator / Pro

1711

rating

debates

84.85%

won

Topic

#1382

Azerbajan is Greater than Armenia as of now

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Winner

After 1 vote and with 1 point ahead, the winner is...

Trent0405

Tags

Politics

Parameters

Publication date: 09.10.2019 07:37PM
Last updated date: 10.20.2020 03:32AM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 3
Time for argument: One week
Max argument characters: 3,500
Voting period: One week
Point system: Winner selection
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

PoliceSheep

1551

rating

debates

57.69%

won

Description

Lets debate. Thank you Police sheep for graciously accepting my challenge

Round 1

Trent0405

09.11.2019 11:01AM

Pro

Standard of living Quality of life and Geography

Education and Academic achievement

Azerbaijan has a much better education system than Armenia, with Azerbaijan ranking 67th, while Armenia ranks 98th. If we go deeper we find Armenia has never won a Nobel prize, but Azerbaijan has.

Quality of life

Azerbaijan ranks slightly higher than Armenia on quality of life, with Armenia ranking 83rd and Azerbaijan ranking 80th.

Homicide Rate

Azerbaijan is better off here as well, with Azerbaijan sitting at 85th, and Armenia ranking 100th.

Geography and Demographics

Azerbaijan Is 86,600 square kilometers, while Armenia is only 29,743, despite other categories in this segment being close Azerbaijan is a staggering 291% difference here. Azerbaijan also has a population consisting of 10 million people, while Armenia only has 2.9 million, this is once again a massive difference.

Armenian atrocities

Armenia has violated cease-fires with Azerbaijan 22 times. But, what else did Armenia do? Well they destroyed 17 mosques in just one region of occupied Azerbaijani land, this may be because Armenia is 94.8% Christian. This is not what a moral virtuous nation would do.

Power

Economy

Azerbaijan is much better off in this department, holding an economy that’s 46.94 billion dollars large, this makes the Azerbaijani economy 377% of the Armenian economy, even per person Azerbaijan is 12% better off.

But, if we go a little deeper we find that Azerbaijan exports over 700% more than Armenia, and we find Azerbaijan producing the 23rd most amount of oil, with Armenia ranking 116th.

Military

For military might, Azerbaijan ranks 52nd while Armenia ranks 96th.

Tourism

Azerbaijan has way more tourism, ranking 84th world wide with Armenia ranking 104th.

PoliceSheep

09.11.2019 04:21PM

Con

Thank you very much for your initial argument.

Democracy

Armenia has just changed classification from an authoritarian regime to a hybrid regime due to recent constitutional changes giving the elected Parliament more power rather than the majority of the power resting with the President. Azerbaijan, on the other hand, is still classed as an authoritarian regime

Armenia has better civil liberties with a score of 5.59 compared to Azerbaijan's 3.35.

Armenia also has a better electoral process and better pluralism with a score of 5.25 which is in stark contrast to Azerbaijan's score of only 0.5.

Media

Armenia, according to the same report, has a more free media, ranking 109th and classified as mostly unfree compared to Azerbaijan's completely unfree media ranking with a score of 0 making it have the joint worse media in the world along with countries such as North Korea and Syria.

Education and Academic Achievement

Armenia has the better primary school teacher to pupil ratio standing at 9:1 rather than Azerbaijan's 11:1 thus giving pupils' more care and attention.

Armenia also spends a higher percentage of GDP on education at 2.8% rather than 2.6%.

Armenia has also had such scientists and engineers as Anna Kazanjian Longobardo who was the first woman to receive an engineering degree from Columbia University in 1949 who also won the Egleston Medal for her engineering achievements.

The MRI machine is an Armenian invention with Dr. Raymond Damadian was an Armenian doctor. His medical research led him to invent the MRI. He was the first doctor to perform a full-body scan of a person to diagnose cancer and has received many awards for his work and research.

Natural Resources

Armenia has natural resources such as gold, copper, molybdenum, zinc and bauxite - many of which are absent from Azerbaijan.

Health

Armenia has an infant mortality rate of 12.7 deaths/1,000 live births whereas Azerbaijan has a lot more deaths at 23.8 deaths/1,000 live births.

Azerbaijan also has a higher amount of underweight under-5 year-olds at 4.9% compared to Armenia's 2.6%.

Round 2

Trent0405

09.11.2019 11:23PM

Pro

I'll focus more now on rebuttals, I'd implore my opponent to do the same.

Education Rebuttals

The MRI machine is an Armenian invention with Dr. Raymond Damadian was an Armenian doctor.

This isn't true, this doctor was born in New York, and Wikipedia classifies him as an American physician, and a medical practitioner.

Armenia also spends a higher percentage of GDP on education at 2.8% rather than 2.6%.

This point merely proves that Armenia is less efficient with it's spending considering that they rank lower than Azerbaijan world wide for education.

Armenia has also had such scientists and engineers as Anna Kazanjian Longobardo who was the first woman to receive an engineering degree from Columbia University in 1949 who also won the Egleston Medal for her engineering achievements.

This isn't true, she was born in New York city not Armenia.

Health Rebuttals

Azerbaijan also has a higher amount of underweight under-5 year-olds at 4.9% compared to Armenia's 2.6%.

I can’t access your source sadly, I’ll take your word for it.

Well overall Azerbaijan has a lower percentage of it’s population that’s malnourished, so in the grand scheme of things Azerbaijan still ranks higher.

Consider the following...

note how Armenia is more obese.

Armenia also Suffers more deaths as a result of aids than Azerbaijan.

And lastly Azerbaijan holds more hospital beds per capita than Armenia, with Azerbaijan ranking 12th, and Armenia ranking 57th out of 190 countries.

Natural resources rebuttals

Armenia has natural resources such as gold, copper, molybdenum, zinc and bauxite - many of which are absent from Azerbaijan

Well Azerbaijan produced 1,895 KG of gold, while Armenia produced 3.1 thousand KG, both nations produce insanely small quantities, even your source admits this. This can't be compared to Azerbaijan's massive lead for oil production. Also consider that oil is the second most sought after resource just behind fresh water, also note the resources you brought up aren't on the list. Also number 3 on the list, natural gas, Azerbaijan also leads there as this source states. Lastly there is water where Azerbaijan leads too.

So Azerbaijan produces more of the top 3 most sought after resources.

Also I forgot to source my oil production point from R1 here it is, I apologise, if I forgot any other sources tell me please.

Democracy/Media

I agree that Armenia is freer, but why is freedom so important? Well because it indicates how good the life of the populous is, well I've already established that Azerbaijani's have a higher quality of life. If we go deeper we find that Azerbaijani people also enjoy a larger disposable salary after taxes and cost of living. Maybe freedom is important because it shows how virtuous the nation is, well a virtuous nation wouldn't violate a ceasefire 22 times. So maybe in this particular category Armenia leads, overall though Azerbaijan leads slightly.

Innovation

Azerbaijan also innovates more, running low on characters but here is my source.

Final

My opponent hasn't been able to convey how Armenia is stronger than Azerbaijan other than his natural resources point which I feel I've debunked, Azerbaijan leads in health, geography, population, education, military, quality of life, and economically.

Again, tell me if I forgot to source something please so I can fix it. Thank you Police Sheep for a great debate so far.

PoliceSheep

09.15.2019 03:54PM

Con

I will also focus on rebuttals, as requested by my opponent.

Education Rebuttals

This isn't true, this doctor was born in New York, and Wikipedia classifies him as an American physician, and a medical practitioner.

Armenia has also had such scientists and engineers as Anna Kazanjian Longobardo who was the first woman to receive an engineering degree from Columbia University in 1949 who also won the Egleston Medal for her engineering achievements.

Both of these people are duel nationals of both America and of Armenia - as described in the source. I concede that both of these individuals did the majority of their work in the United States of America.

Azerbaijan has a much better education system than Armenia, with ranking 67th, while Armenia ranks 98th. If we go deeper we find Armenia has never won a Nobel prize, but Azerbaijan has.

On the ranking list you provided as a source, it has nations that have better education systems that have also not had a recipient of the Nobel Prize in any field that was educated in that nations education system in the top 20 education systems. These include:

Estonia (7th),
Isreal (9th)
Kazakhstan (15th)
Slovenia (16th)
Georgia (17th)
Singapore (18th)

Therefore, I conclude that having someone educated in a countries education system and receiving a Nobel prize is not related.

Also, Azerbaijan has never had a person win the Nobel Prize that was born and educated in their education system. Lev Landau was born in the Soviet Union and won his prize for the USSR. It is only using the modern country boundaries that it would be considered Azerbaijan which would be inaccurate.

Health Rebuttals

note how Armenia is more obese.

Armenia also Suffers more deaths as a result of aids than Azerbaijan.

And lastly Azerbaijan holds more hospital beds per capita than Armenia, with Azerbaijan ranking 12th, and Armenia ranking 57th out of 190 countries.

These are true, however, despite this, Armenia still has a higher life expectancy than Azerbaijan.

Economic Rebuttals

Azerbaijan is much better off in this department, holding an economy that’s 46.94 billion dollars large.

Whilst this is true, Armenia leads in Gross National Income (GNI) - a figure which gives a more accurate representation of the success of an economy.

Media/Democracy Rebuttals

I agree that Armenia is freer, but why is freedom so important?

I would argue that freedom is neither a mesure of virtuosity nor quality of life as my opponent suggests. Freedom is important because it leads to enhanced expressions of creativity and original thought and increased productivity.

You also brought up the point of;

well a virtuous nation wouldn't violate a ceasefire 22 times.

The definition of virtuous is having or showing high moral standards, according to the OED. I would argue that failing to uphold the human rights of freedom of expression, freedom of the press, freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. Azerbaijan has failed to do this so I would propose that Armenia is more virtuous than Azerbaijan.

Conclusion

My opponent has made some valid points, however, when compared and put into context, I have proved that Armenia is the better country - particularly in the area of freedom.

Thank you for a lovely debate. I look forward to the final round.

Round 3

Trent0405

09.15.2019 07:09PM

Pro

I want to thank my opponent for his response

Education

Both of these people are duel nationals of both America and of Armenia - as described in the source.

I realized this is not relevant to the resolution given that it says “as of now”, but Armenia despite these anecdotal cases lags behind Azerbaijan when it comes to innovation, and Azerbaijan still ranks higher than Armenia internationally for education. I have also been able to prove Armenia spends on education poorly, when compared to Azerbaijan.

Life expectancy

These are true, however, despite this, Armenia still has a higher life expectancy than Azerbaijan.

“The Global Age Watch Index” says a better measurement for poor or middle income countries than regular life expectancy is life expectancy at 60, here we see Azerbaijan leads slightly. My malnourishment point is untouched.

Health

My opponent states the rest of my arguments are true and points to life expectancy.

Economy

Armenia leads in Gross National Income (GNI)

Well my opponents method leaves out many factors that GNI, Per capita, Purchasing Power Parity doesn't, under this method Azerbaijan leads by a lot.

a figure which gives a more accurate representation of the success of an economy.

This claim is controversial, “Investopedia” made a list of the most accurate ways to measure economic growth, GNI is absent from the list but GDP is on the list despite GDP having flaws, we can't dicount it.

Media/ Democracy

Freedom is important because it leads to enhanced expressions of creativity and original thought and increased productivity.

For the sake of argument I’ll agree to this. Well an Azerbaijani will add more to his nations production on average. Azerbaijan has 47 museums, but Armenia only has 23, Azerbaijan isn’t lacking here. As for original thought, Azerbaijani’s file more patents(source below, wont imbed, works this way though). Again remember that Azerbaijan’s are more innovative. So, under my opponents staement of what freedom indicates, Azerbaijan beats Armenia in art, productivity, and original thought.

file:///C:/Users/trent/AppData/Local/Microsoft/Windows/INetCache/IE/MKRY2Y23/wipo_pub_941_2018.pdf

The definition of virtuous is having or showing high moral standards, according to the OED. I would argue that failing to uphold the human rights of freedom of expression, freedom of the press, freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. Azerbaijan has failed to do this so I would propose that Armenia is more virtuous than Azerbaijan.

Well at least Armenia merely leads by about 7 points out of 100 points for moral freedom, so that doesn't override the massive power disparity, health disparity, and educational disparity Again, everything you state freedom proves Azerbaijan leads in.

Natural resources

Points dropped, extend arguments. -----Forgotten source my apologies.

Conclusion

Azerbaijan has a larger military, more important natural resources, excels in what freedom aims to prove, has a larger economy(through GDP, Exports, GNI Per capita PPP), better health and a better education system. My opponent has still failed to show how Armenia is more powerful other than his natural resources point which he hasn't defended. Azerbaijan leads in most economic measurements, even per person.(sources for conclusion are in R1/R2/R3.

I would like to thank police sheep for accepting this debate and abstaining from forfeitures, and unruly behaviour.

PoliceSheep

09.17.2019 08:26PM

Con

Education

Armenia [...] lags behind Azerbaijan when it comes to innovation

Per your source for the rankings under the International Innovation Index, I concede Azerbaijan is higher than Armenia - however there is only a 0.12 difference so I would argue that the difference is so insignificant that the countries are indistinguishable on this metric. However, according to the Global Innovation Index (GII), Armenia is significantly more innovative than Azerbaijan on a range of areas and most critically, in the overall rankings with Armenia in 64th place and Azerbaijan in 20 places lower at 84th in the world.

I have also been able to prove Armenia spends on education poorly, when compared to Azerbaijan.

Whilst the use of money may be more effective, I have been able to prove that education is a bigger priority for the Armenian Government through them spending a higher percentage of GDP when compared to Armenia.

Life expectancy

better measurement for poor or middle income countries

This is simply an opinion of the GAWI with many other organisations and scholars both disagreeing and agreeing. I would, therefore, argue that my point still stands with Armenia still having a higher life expectancy than Azerbaijan.

Media/ Democracy

My opponent conceded in their R2 argument that "I agree that Armenia is freer".

I have proved throughout this debate that Armenia has better democratic systems and upholds human rights to a higher standard of Azerbaijan consistently.

Azerbaijan has 47 museums, but Armenia only has 23, Azerbaijan isn’t lacking here. As for original thought, Azerbaijani’s file more patents(s)

The number of museums is not relevant due to the difference in population which is a natural explanation for this. The filing of more patents doesn't say anything about the ability to express your political views - including those critical to current leadership which I have proven is easier in Armenia.

Again remember that Azerbaijan’s are more innovative.

I have proven this to be subjective with different ranking bodies coming to different conclusions. Please regard the arguments made in the Education section.

Conclusion

I have tacked the vast majority of my opponent's points and either given reasonable justification as to why it should not be considered as heavy or dispelled it with further evidence. I have proven that Armenia leads in democratic freedoms, freedom of the press, Government funding priorities, life expectancy, innovation, gold production and many other areas.

Thank you for a wonderful, well-mannered debate.

Intelligence_06

10.20.2020 03:32AM

Oh come on, Azerbajan is not a real country. How is it better than Armenia?

PoliceSheep

09.18.2019 08:15AM

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@Christen

They are both former Soviet republics in Asia.

Christen

09.18.2019 01:10AM

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@Trent0405

@PoliceSheep

This debate made no sense. Nobody knows what an Azerbajan or Armenia is...

Trent0405

09.17.2019 09:49PM

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@PoliceSheep

Well your braver than I am, I'd never accept a debate that was about something I was unfamiliar with, you undeniably did better in your first full debate than I did in my first debate, now the voters will decide the victor.

PoliceSheep

09.17.2019 09:46PM

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@Trent0405

It was! That was my first ever full debate. I was a bit fearful at first over format/rules etc. but it was really enjoyable. I didn't know much about the topic before taking it up so it was interesting to learn about both countries.

Trent0405

09.17.2019 08:30PM

-->

@PoliceSheep

that was fun

Trent0405

09.17.2019 08:28PM

Votes?

Barney

09.19.2019 05:00PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Winner

1 point(s)

Reason:

Azerbaijan = AZ, Armenia = AR

Gist:
I am not convinced I would want to live in either, but AZ sounds better by a host of standards shown.

1. Education and Academic achievement: AZ
AZ has somewhat better schooling. A lesser rate of teachers or GDP investment doesn’t matter if the outcome is not favorable (con does better by later pointing out it’s “only a 0.12 difference”; however this is a comparison debate, so a little is still a win for this section).

AZ has a noble prize for something in quantum mechanics. (I do not buy the USSR counter argument; if we go that route we may as well claim neither country has plumbing due to the Romans having built the aqueduct...).
AR had... Sorry New York City had a really good female engineer who was the first to graduate at Columbia, and they gave her a medal (it’s cool, but the same people giving her the medal mitigates its significance). New York City also had the inventor of the MRI machine.

2. Quality of life: AZ
AZ comes ahead, and this seems to be unchallenged.

3. Homicide Rate: AZ
Unchallenged

4. Geography and Demographics: AZ
AZ is bigger with more people.
AR has more diverse natural resources, but AZ does better on the most important ones (to include much more clean water, having 77.7 v. 7.7 km^3 per capita. On oil, AR does not even make the list)

5. Democracy/Media/Crimes: AZ
The crimes committed while so free and democratic were unchallenged. The relevance of them being free and democratic was successfully challenged, pro even used pro’s own metrics to show that AZ is more free and democratic (by the outcome used to measure those things... a flawed standard), which con mistook for a concession.

6. Health: tie
AR does better on infant mortality, and obesity among children at age 5 (their adult population did not fare so well; and contradictorily they suffer greater rates of malnourishment).

---

Arguments:
See above review of key points. AZ just comes ahead by too many of the measures in question.