Instigator
Points: 2

TH, as the UN, would not pursue an investigation to find and prosecute Kira, and would allow the rise of a new world.

Finished

The voting period has ended

After 2 votes the winner is ...
Exile
Debate details
Publication date
Last update
Category
Politics
Time for argument
Two days
Voting system
Open voting
Voting period
One week
Point system
Winner selection
Rating mode
Rated
Characters per argument
10,000
Contender
Points: 0
Description
INFO SLIDE: In the crime ridden world of 2020, someone of high intellect finds a mysterious notebook that falls from the sky one day. The notebook is said to contain the power to kill anyone by writing someone's full name while visualizing their face, and after 60 seconds that person dies of a heart attack or another cause of death that is otherwise noted at the time of writing. Eventually, this person takes upon the vigilante role as Kira, and sets out to kill numerous high-profile domestic criminals, before eventually targeting international criminals and felons, in the hopes to create a better, new world for all.
RULES:
- Rounds will go as follows:
R1: Opening statements
R2: First rebuttals
R3: Second rebuttals
R4: Closing statements (no new information or rebuttals allowed)
- Terms/sources will be used with respect of the anime and NOT the manga.
- Knowledge of the anime is not required but is recommended. Expect spoilers and difficulty arguing against this motion.
- This debate is supposed to be fun, so be sure to have fun!
By agreeing to contend this debate, you agree to the rules and will have read the info slide. Not adhering to the rules will cost you a conduct point.
Round 1
Published:
Thank you billbatard for contesting this debate. I look forward to a fun discussion.

I want to teach a brief history lesson on the Black Plague. The Black Plague killed an estimated 200 million people from 1347 until 1351; the span of 4 years. During these 4 years, it killed an estimated amount of at least 75 million people, but it is also believed that it has killed up to nearly 200 million. Within the span of 4 years, humanity took a dark turn from the depopulation that occurred. Businesses suffered all around Europe, and wages soared sky high because there were hardly any healthy people left to work. Persecutions of many kinds took place, as the desperation to stop the plague from spreading was that great. Eventually, persecutions got out of hand and people started to target those of specific demographics (most notably Jews) who were the most likely to acquire the Black Plague. [1]
 
Now, a new plague has come upon this hypothetical world as of 2020. This plague is that of crime; the immoral actions of human beings with endless incentives to back up those actions. Livelihoods are destroyed everyday by individual and organized crime. Murders, rapes, kidnappings, fraud, terrorism, etc. are committed against the innocent men, women and children all around the world. There is no respect for the law by these individuals, and rich nations like Germany, Canada and the United States have been just as affected. The conformity to the law is virtually nonexistent, and policy has had no effect in mitigating this hysteria. It is an epidemic, and one that must be stopped immediately at all costs. 
 
It is with this crisis that a cure must be one that exceeds the concept of policy. Thus, the cure for this plague of crime is not that of policy, but that of the powerful vigilante justice from Kira. 
 
The power of Kira is an incomprehensible one. The ability to kill so simply from any location at any point in times with a mere notebook is no doubt a very dangerous one. That being said, this hypothetical world is blessed with the fact that this power is in the hands of a very smart, capable and just individual. The world has been blessed, because this power is in the hands of someone who wants to eradicate the prominence of crime in our world. The world has been blessed, because now, those who have committed unspeakable acts towards women and children can now be punished that many legal systems around the world would not be able to do. The world has been blessed, because the power of fear has been put into the hands of someone who stands on behalf of innocent people, and seeks to make the world a better place. 

With such an opportunity to end global hysteria, it would be crazy for the United Nations to seek out justice against the very person trying to make the world a better place. 

Pro will stand on the following principles in this debate to show you why it's necessary for absolutely no intervention whatsoever to occur from the UN:

  1. The powers of Kira are more practical, and avoids martial law. Given that the world is ridden with crime, the most logical solution for the UN to come to in order to seek mitigation of a crisis like this one is to have each nation deploy reserve troops to most crime-ridden areas, with the end result being martial law. This is a foolish solution, because lives are risked to fight off violent criminals and organized crime/gang members who have a lot of power at this point, and it would require a lot of governmental and organizational funding to correctly solve this epidemic. It makes no sense to risk lives and spend money when there is a completely capable solution that would require no involvement from the UN whatsoever.
  2. Aside from the powers of the notebook, Kira's shroud of fear is just as effective. After many uses of the notebook, Kira will be the new law of the land. No criminal would want to be on Kira's hit list, so therefore those individuals will be incentivized to stop what they're doing. Eventually, Kira won't have to do a lot of killing in order to stay relevant, because the general public now knows that such a power exists, and that those who commit crimes are kept under a very close watch. For those who do not want to be one of Kira's victims, they will most likely go into hiding 
  3. As long as Kira remains hidden, the possibility of a new crimeless utopia is strong. Eventually, Kira will have to finish his job. There will either be no more criminals to execute or existing criminals will stay hidden due to the fear of Kira, and so the possibility of a world without crime isn't necessarily unrealistic. Of course, this does not meant that a world like this is guaranteed to happen, because it all depends on whether or not Kira stays hidden from organized criminals, and given that he is a person of high intellect (like the info slide says) then it is highly unlikely he will be caught. 
  4. Even if the new world doesn't happen and if Kira stops killing at some point, there is still a net benefit to society. In the event that Kira stops killing for reasons unknown to the public, the amount of work he will have done will not be in vain. Society will have been better off regardless considering the world before Kira's existence, since there will be less criminals in the world than prior. 
  5. The opportunity to potentially have a world rid of crime is too great to pass up on. Kira's powers work effectively, and if the best case scenario does happen (where nearly all active criminals are dead and the world exhibits record low crime rates), then having that would be an excellent privilege and a milestone for humanity. The fear of Kira would be set in stone in society, and with everyone knowing that the cost of committing a crime would be death would be perfect deterrence in order for such a world to exist. For the UN to get in the way of that would be highly unwise, especially considering that the foundations of the UN were to have peace and diplomacy around the world, hence creating a "unity."
  6. Given the status quo, the use of vigilante justice is justified. Upholding the law within the status quo would not be beneficial to the peaceful public, since the world is already crime ridden. Therefore, it is easy to assume that those who uphold the law, such as police officers, are either not respected or have been targeted by organized crime and thus resulting in lower numbers overall. Since that this is most likely the case, new policy or enacting martial law (like I explained above), would not do anything to deter criminals. The world needs a new form of justice that will be almost certain to work at a large scale, and simply upholding the law would not do that. That being said, while the use of killing to deter crime is not an ideal, yet rather immoral one (Pro concedes this notion) sadly, it is the only probably solution that exists in this status quo. There must a fight with fire against fire.
Before I end, I want to point out some things that Con must do in order to successfully contest the motion:
  • Con must show you all that vigilante justice such as Kira's is unwarranted in the hypothetical status quo. He must show why there is no good reason for the actions of Kira to persist.
  • Con must also warrant UN involvement, and show that the UN is the most capable in intervening and pursuing justice against Kira. Furthermore, he must provide an alternative solution to fixing the status quo that does not require Kira, and thus allowing the pursuit of Kira.
  • Con must also show you that crime will still be present in a world where Kira is present. The end goal of Pro is to show you that Kira can be effective in pursuing his agenda, and in order to falsify this, Con must show you that Kira has every likelihood of failing at this agenda. 
For all of these reasons, I am proud to propose the motion. 

SOURCES:


Published:
Dude no one needs a super hero crime is at an all time low nuff said https://www.brennancenter.org/press-release/crime-remains-historic-lows-america
Crime Remains at Historic Lows in America
June 12, 2018


New York, NY – Crime in America’s 30 largest cities remains near historic lows. The Brennan Center for Justice at NYU Law published its final analysis of crime data from 2017 today, showing an overall decrease in violent crime and murder since 2016.
Crime in 2017: Final Analysis establishes that any claims of a nationwide crime wave are unwarranted. Compiled by a team of economic and policy researchers, it confirms predictions from the Center’s December report, Crime in 2017: Updated Analysis.
“Crime rates in American cities once again declined in 2017, and remain near historic lows,” said Ames Grawert, senior counsel in the Brennan Center’s Justice program. “Contrary to President Trump’s rhetoric using the threat of rising violent crime to stoke anti-immigrant sentiment, our data show low rates of crime across the country. There are still communities like Chicago and Baltimore struggling to control violence, but rather than resorting to fearmongering, leaders should instead embrace and promote smart policing and real reforms that make all our communities safer.”
Some key findings from this analysis include a 2.1 percent decline in the overall crime rate of America’s 30 largest cities since 2016, as well as a 1 percent decline in violent crime and 3.4 percent decline in the 2017 murder rate.
Chicago and Houston saw some of the largest decreases in murder rates, which fell by 12.3 percent and nearly 17 percent respectively. Chicago’s decline partially offsets its recent increase in homicides. Cities including Baltimore and Philadelphia saw a rise in murder rates for 2017.
Click here to see more of the Brennan Center’s research on crime rates in America, including an analysis of historical crime trends from 1990-2016, available here. And, click here to read more about the methodology behind the Brennan Center’s crime analyses.
For more information or to schedule an interview with a Brennan Center expert, contact Rebecca Autrey at [email protected] or 646-292-8316.
###https://www.brennancenter.org/press-release/crime-remains-historic-lows-america

Round 2
Published:
People of the house, I think it's relatively clear that Con not only provides any points in R1, but also starts rebutting right off the bat. The sources and statistics that Con has used from the Brennan Center of Justice apply only to the real world, rather than the hypothetical one which this debate is about. There isn't much for me to rebut since none of what Con says in R1 applies to the debate at hand, and if I were to rebut anything Con said in R1, then it would fall out of the jurisdiction of this debate, and thus diminishing the motion.

Therefore, I'll do a mild rebuttal of his entire statement and explain exactly why it has nothing to do with the motion at hand.

Dude no one needs a super hero crime is at an all time low nuff said https://www.brennancenter.org/press-release/crime-remains-historic-lows-america
Crime Remains at Historic Lows in America
June 12, 2018


New York, NY – Crime in America’s 30 largest cities remains near historic lows. The Brennan Center for Justice at NYU Law published its final analysis of crime data from 2017 today, showing an overall decrease in violent crime and murder since 2016.
Crime in 2017: Final Analysis establishes that any claims of a nationwide crime wave are unwarranted. Compiled by a team of economic and policy researchers, it confirms predictions from the Center’s December report, Crime in 2017: Updated Analysis.
“Crime rates in American cities once again declined in 2017, and remain near historic lows,” said Ames Grawert, senior counsel in the Brennan Center’s Justice program. “Contrary to President Trump’s rhetoric using the threat of rising violent crime to stoke anti-immigrant sentiment, our data show low rates of crime across the country. There are still communities like Chicago and Baltimore struggling to control violence, but rather than resorting to fearmongering, leaders should instead embrace and promote smart policing and real reforms that make all our communities safer.”
Some key findings from this analysis include a 2.1 percent decline in the overall crime rate of America’s 30 largest cities since 2016, as well as a 1 percent decline in violent crime and 3.4 percent decline in the 2017 murder rate.
Chicago and Houston saw some of the largest decreases in murder rates, which fell by 12.3 percent and nearly 17 percent respectively. Chicago’s decline partially offsets its recent increase in homicides. Cities including Baltimore and Philadelphia saw a rise in murder rates for 2017.
Click here to see more of the Brennan Center’s research on crime rates in America, including an analysis of historical crime trends from 1990-2016, available here. And, click here to read more about the methodology behind the Brennan Center’s crime analyses.
For more information or to schedule an interview with a Brennan Center expert, contact Rebecca Autrey at [email protected] or 646-292-8316.
First off, comparing a hypothetical world to the likes of modern day New York City and Chicago does absolutely nothing. In our scenario the entire world is crime ridden, meaning that it's an established fact that crime is more present than it has ever been. Second, using these srouces to somehow prove that vigilante justice isn't needed doesn't do anything to prove Con's case because (yet again) he still hasn't acknowledged the circumstances of this hypothetical world. Con has to do a whole lot more if he wants to have any chance at winning, and his first step must be to follow the rules of the motion, as well as address it head on instead of giving us blatant statistics.

With this, I'm going to extend my arguments from R1, and develop them in R3 so that I can give Con a chance to make points within the context of this debate.


Published:
the hypothetical world you created in your brain is silly so is a book you can right names in , but lets go you dont need kira or that book destroy it, to clean up your iuniverse all you need to do is adopt the policies we did in the real world without the danger of that book going into the wrong hands, bette rsurvailance bigger prisons better response times, more cops less guns, unless the laws of your world dont mesh with this one, we can use real methods to solve the problem, the book is too dangerous to have in private hands or any hands destroy it before it can be abused and start taking out babies and world leaders, we cleaned up the real world we can clean up your little delusion
Round 3
Published:
After a while, we finally have a response from Con that is, while still somewhat detached, is the most relevant argument he's made in this debate. Sadly, there are many things wrong with this response.

all you need to do is adopt the policies we did in the real world without the danger of that book going into the wrong hands, bette rsurvailance bigger prisons better response times, more cops less guns, unless the laws of your world dont mesh with this one, we can use real methods to solve the problem
Con needs to properly cite these policies and how they're relevant to the UN. Either way, I'll bite the bullet and assume that somehow the UN was able to do all of the things that Con naively describes. Assuming that the UN was somehow able to enact new policy to have better surveillance, bigger prisons, response times, and more cops/less guns, absolutely none of those solutions would work because the world in this debate is in fact crime-ridden. Police and gun laws wouldn't have an effect because they don't stop a crime-ridden world, and are not necessarily solutions that would work in a world that is crime-ridden. On top of that, all of these policies would be incredibly expensive if they were taken into a global account. Billions of dollars would be spent from every world government trying to uphold new legislation, and if we're considering developing countries who don't have the budget for this sort of thing (such as Venezuela), then these policies would essentially isolate them  and simply not work. Con needs to prove how this would work on such an epidemic level.

the book is too dangerous to have in private hands
This is the only relevant point Con makes. Yes, a power like the one the notebook allows to have a person is great, but that power being in the hands of Kira is not a bad but rather a good one. The largest reason for this is his philosophy, which as seen in the anime, is to create a better world; one that exists without crime and allowing peace to ensue upon the global public. We actually see that Kira is successful in doing this too, as crime in the anime gets at an all time worldly low, and society does get in fact safer. This alone shows us that Kira is a dependable person and one who has the lowest, if not infinitely small likelihood, of turning into someone who's ideas could change and start "taking out babies and world leaders" that Con blatantly describes. If Con wants to uphold this point, then he has to develop this point further and sell to you all how there is a great likelihood that Kira could turn evil at an instant.  

we cleaned up the real world we can clean up your little delusion
Finally, Con has still chosen not to take this debate seriously. Because of this, I'm further extending my points for the desperate attempt that Con will at least go with the flow of the motion and actually rebut my points while properly participating in the debate as a whole.
Published:
Such a book would be too big a risk in anyones hands best to just destroy it the potential for disaster is too great
Round 4
Published:
I waive my opportunity to deliver a closing statement, and will simply tell the voter that one side (Pro) has clearly participated in this debate where the other (Con) has done so subpar.
Published:
That book could end all human life on earth there is too big a risk to keep it in the hands of some unstable fan boy, other methods are avialable to bring down crime , like dealing with poverty or better professional law enforcment
Added:
--> @RationalMadman
I somehow doubt any are as good as the anime, though.
#12
Added:
--> @OoDart
There are three different movie interpretations of it.
#11
Added:
Interesting debate. I've watched the anime 3 times and the movie once (liked the anime better).
#10
Added:
--> @Exile
Nice job. I suggest opening this one up again for a higher tier opponent (set the minimum rating to 1500...).
#9
Added:
Bump for voting.
Instigator
#8
Added:
the book could fall in the wwrong hands
Contender
#7
Added:
--> @billbatard
Then why did you accept?
Instigator
#6
Added:
i'm confused
Contender
#5
Added:
--> @RationalMadman
Ergo, Kira warrants involvement of the UN lol
Instigator
#4
Added:
The UN is passive as can be, of course this is a true resolution. They don't have any morals whatsoever, other than making sure no one in the world is too pissed off and powerful at any given time (in relation to others).
#3
Added:
--> @Exile
Awesome debate idea!
#2
Added:
Sincerely tempted, but don’t have the time right now.
#1
#2
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Winner 1 point
Reason:
This voter is not familiar with the anime "Death Note."
PRO describes a totalitarian fantasy of epic proportions- a single anonymous individual's judgement is substituted for all the legal systems and scholarship and courts and police in the world. Crime and criminality is not defined but this all powerful super-assassin best guess seems to be the only definition of crime that matters and the judgement of criminal applies to most of the world, apparently. PRO offers a world where one anonymous individual has the power and self-justification to kill without discretion or oversight or checks and balances and actually defends this world as preferable to the (presumably) democratic and processes of the United Nations.
PRO seems to presume that Kira would necessarily be successful in suppressing crime, ignoring the scale of the problem. Even if Kira takes no time for criminal investigation, forensics, witness interviews, mitigating circumstances and just devotes all 243,000 minutes of the average person's waking life to killing people he is pretty sure are bad guys, that's only a few hundred thousand criminals dead in a world that's chock full of criminals. PRO compares the crime plague to the Black Plague so let's say 50%- 3,750,000,000 individual criminals. Best case, PRO's ubermurderer can take out 6 one-thousanths of 1% of the criminal problem. What's PRO's plan for the rest of the criminals? Who vets Kira's definition of crime. What if Kira thinks not wearing a hat is a crime or not shaving a beard? Who would tell Kira he's wrong?
Obviously, the world's response to an anonymous sniper who kill by face and name would be to stop naming people, changing and covering faces. The human response to an anonymous tyrant is counter-anonymity.
This voter hates the world PRO describes and his hideously anti-democratic superhero. I suppose all superheroes are anti-democratic to a profound degree, Nietzsche's superman=ubermensch=" Deutschland, Deutschland über alles" (Kill Bill's contemptuous superman speech) but PRO's notion of justice is deeply depressing
NEVERTHELESS,
This is PRO's game. PRO made the rules. This VOTER agrees with just about every argument CON makes but CON's argument fail to engage PRO's set up. R1, CON argues that PRO's fiction does not reflect the real world which is true but breaks the dynamic of a hypothetical discussion. R2 argues that superheros are unnecessary antidotes to crime. Again true but not engaged. R3 and R4 correctly call the whole dynamic dangerous but never bothers to get into why.
PRO set up a fairly arguable hypothetical situation that CON fails to discuss. So argument to PRO as well as conduct- CON did not follow PRO's reasonable debate format
#1
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Winner 1 point
Reason:
Interpreting the resolution:
The generic world government would be better served by not seeking to prosecute the wielder of the Death Note
Gist:
Con dropped pro’s argument to run a K, but the K missed the target leaving pro’s six major points wholly uncontested.
Suspension of disbelief
The first sentence in the description informs us what basis things are assumed to happen in. Arguing that the world should not have acted against Kira in 2019, doesn’t touch on the crime ridden world of 2020 in which this debate is focused.
Arguments:
Some credit to con for engaging in the debate without just copy/pasting lines from sources. However, the crime data he cited from 2018 and 2017 is grossly outdated, we could not have predicted the crime wave that was to start in October 2019! That those changes worked for awhile, did not stop the criminals; it’s like con is struck in the past...
I do generally agree with con that we should deal with poverty (and ideally not by means of the Death Note), and train better police. Pro even built into his case that Kira might just stop one day, and implied we should press our advantage.
A good counter case could have focused on Kira needlessly targeting police officers, and possibly the corruption of power clearly manifested in the uncontrolled criminal activity around the world... Heck even a ‘we should take it for ourselves, and use it to end poverty’ would have been at least potentially valid (if still unlikely to win).
Conduct:
“the hypothetical world you created in your brain is silly so is a book you can right names in” unwilling to engage in the debate as agreed, and insulting the very foundation of it, merits the penalty.