Instigator / Pro
15
1709
rating
564
debates
68.17%
won
Topic
#147
Tech N9ne has the most evolved, near-perfect capability to make his raps flow of all rappers there have ever been AND EVER will be. He is insurmountable as a flow machine.
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
3
9
Better sources
6
2
Better legibility
3
3
Better conduct
3
0
After 3 votes and with 1 point ahead, the winner is...
RationalMadman
Tags
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- Two months
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
14
1266
rating
119
debates
15.97%
won
Description
No information
Round 1
Pro
#1
If you alter Tech's style, you sacrifice flow for other things in rap like perhaps delivery quality, emphasis on words etc but if you want to shock, amaze, please with pure liquid insanely near-perfect flow you can't have a style that isn't Tech's and since he came first and killed it, if any other rapper does it they will be said to be paying homage to Tech or being a weak impersonation of him, one or the other. Tech has branded the type of rap where you sacrifice all for flow and still do so well in other categories regardless.
Samples:
I wait for my opponent to bring something into the ring to fight against before I dig in deep and bring out the real in-depth analysis etc.
Con
#2
Here's the thing, I actually agree with you that Tech has the best flow of anyone currently. The problem (for you) is that it is literally impossible for you to prove that no one will ever reach a higher level of flow than him unless you can quantify exactly what the highest possible tier of flow is and prove that he is at that level. I don't believe this is even possible so you have lost this debate the second you claimed that no one can ever be better than him at flow.
Round 2
Pro
#3
Con concedes that Tech has the best flow. I am glad.
Con concedes that Tech has the best possible flow unless Con can explain why or how to make a better flow than Tech has.
Tech alters his flow in the maximum capacity that a rapper can do. I said in Round one that any who would do it this way, would be say to be copying Tech N9ne and thus no such rapper could ever make it as a legit 'rapper' as they'd be called a rip-off Tech and basically be like an Elvis impersonator.
Even if they did equal him, that's the most they can do. Tech is so slick with his flow, it's insane how well he does it. You cannot rationalise the methodology behind it because like geniuses of high IQ, geniuses of high-creativity literally operate mentally via pathways and combined speeds of said pathways most don't have in their brain.
Tech fluctuates his flow and even that flows.
Just listen to the following masterpieces and enjoy life:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXIc03slT64 < Only verse 1 is him
https://youtu.be/hmbvQLrjUas?t=16< same as above
https://youtu.be/SfYgR1X2pHk?t=101< Verse 2 only
Con
#4
Con concedes that Tech has the best possible flow unless Con can explain why or how to make a better flow than Tech has.
Don't try to flip this on me you sneaky little bastard. At best you're just creating a scenario where neither of us can win if I can't explain how to make a better flow and you can't quantify what the best possible flow is and prove he's at that level. You are the one claiming that no one can ever be better than Tech so why don't you go ahead and explain how you know he has the best possible flow and not just the best flow currently.
How do you know what the best possible flow is?
Round 3
Pro
#5
What Con is trying to do is just as cunning as what I am trying to do but the difference is I am on the correct side regarding burden of proof.
If someone is the greatest at something, it is up to you to prove that a greater being could be there.
Tech N9ne matches fast, slow, quiet, loud etc etc ways of flowing and while volume is a mix between flow and delivery and isn't clearly either the reason Tech is so flawless at flow is if DELIVERY (quality of tone etc) comes in the way of FLOW, he won't go for it.
Con concedes that he's the best and the point I'm making is no other rapper can ever be as good because his very style 'the way of mixing it up to perfectly elegantly fire his voice and lyrics across the beat in a seamless way that astonishes you and pleases the ear and stimulates the brain if focusing hard on the rap is unparalleled and his very style itself is that. So all other rappers as good would be a Tech impersonator and kicked out of the rap game for trying to be him and constantly teased etc. Therefore, there will never be a better one.
Con
#6
What Con is trying to do is just as cunning as what I am trying to do but the difference is I am on the correct side regarding burden of proof.If someone is the greatest at something, it is up to you to prove that a greater being could be there.
Just because you say that does not make it so. If you cannot establish what the best possible flow is and prove that Tech is on that level then you are the one making an unsubstantiated claim that you can't prove.
Tech N9ne matches fast, slow, quiet, loud etc etc ways of flowing and while volume is a mix between flow and delivery and isn't clearly either the reason Tech is so flawless at flow is if DELIVERY (quality of tone etc) comes in the way of FLOW, he won't go for it.
So he sacrifices delivery/making sense in order to flow better. What if someone could flow just as well but actually make sense and deliver well? What if someone could do the same as him (sacrificing other elements for flow) and flow much more insanely? Hell, what if someone could deliver well, make sense, AND flow better than him? Your claim that this is impossible is unsubstantiated, the burden of proof does not fall on me simply because I don't believe your assertions.
he point I'm making is no other rapper can ever be as good because his very style 'the way of mixing it up to perfectly elegantly fire his voice and lyrics across the beat in a seamless way that astonishes you and pleases the ear and stimulates the brain if focusing hard on the rap is unparalleled and his very style itself is that.
What if the beats were more complex? (rap beats are all relatively simple compared to what they could be including Tech's) It would allow for a flow that is so complex yet coherent with the beat that it essentially opens up the possibility for a new level of rap flow. Tech N9ne's place as the best flow-smith is based on current standards and do not at all reach the limit of what you can do with the english language.
Round 4
Pro
#7
FULL CREDIT TO https://genius.com FOR THE LYRICS I POST.
Alright, here is how burden of proof works. I say Tech has the greatest flow, Con says 'yes, I agree he does'. con says 'but someone## can have a better one' Con then says that the way to measure flow doesn't exist and that he can't in any way remotely explain or expand on how a better one could form and it's assumed that since burden of proof lies on the positive claim that his own positive claim compounded onto mine is somehow lacking the need for BoP.
The only reason Con has sole BoP now is because Con said he agreed that Tech has the best flow. Otherwise, I'd indeed have to first prove things.
So, let me go ahead and explain flow and why, while subjective, as long as no one is spite-voting me they are going to be in shock and awe at how impossible it is to improve on flow of Tech N9ne without literally sounding just like him (meaning you can't improve his flow, you can only imitate it and master his own 'martial art' of flow-focused rapping so to speak).
I think we need to establish what Flow is. Unlike the other debate I had with Type1 with Vinnie and Tech and exploring both flow and delivery (as well as the Vinnie vs Eminem one) I am going to go into more detail about Flow here and use a far more technical source as this is going to have to get specific for me to secure the win and hit the resolution home.
THE MEANING OF RAP FLOWFlow is the combination of two elements, that determine the overall sound of a rapper. The two elements being rhyme schemes and intonation techniques.This is flow. So, if you want to determine someones flow, you just pay attention to his rhyme schemes and intonation techniques.RHYME SCHEMESWe have a whole section on rhyme scheme in our Rapping Manual dedicated to learning and mastering different kinds of rhyme schemes and all there is to it, is choosing:what rhyme words will you usehow many of them will you havewhere will you put them.This is the essence of a rhyme scheme.INTONATION TECHNIQUESIntonation is the rise and fall of the voice. It’s the fluctuations of the voice. For example, you know that the sentence “I can’t wait to see you.” can have 5 different meanings, depending on the intonation used. Therefore, intonation derives from feeling and emotion.Intonation plays a huge part in coming up with a great rap flowIntonation plays a huge part in coming up with a great rap flowEach rapper has a different(sometimes similar) intonations and this is because each of them has a different attitude and demeanour. Each rapper is carrying himself in a different way. Therefore, the intonation of their bars is different.Think of intonation as the spirit of the rhyme scheme. A rhyme scheme without intonation is lifeless and boring, but once you give it an intonation pattern, you give it life.
What that manual doesn't admit and very few, if any, admit outright is there's a way to pinpoint who has the most astonishing flow, period. The reason for this is of course that people who are fans of worse-flowers than Tech N9ne (such as myself) often feel guilt in admitting their superior rap artists in their rankings or equally-liked ones have an undeniably inferior flow to this god-tier flower. The issue is that they don't realise that there's no such thing as a perfect rap-style BUT there is such a thing as a specialised rap style. Also, while there's no such thing as a flawless rap style (because you always sacrifice something to specialise and impress in some way and if you're an all-rounder, you sacrifice the very notion of not being an all-rounder in how you rap).
In this debate I am not saying at all... That Tech N9ne... Is the best rapper or the best, rap-song-maker. I am saying that Tech's style from his earliest days in rap (it's just his natural style of rapping) to now has been the single most possible way to be as good a rapper as one can be while sacrificing everything in rap (including even depth of topics addressed) to keep flow not just seamless but ALTERING to the melody and beat in ways that make you never too bored and never too racy (he chops it just right and slows it just right). This is indeed subjective and a spiteful voter could in a way say 'well Pro is just wrong, I listened to the raps and they don't flow remotely impressive and if anything I think it's over the top how Tech does it' but I am hoping they'll keep an open mind, leave corrupt reasons to vote out of this and be straight up appreciating the best flower of rap ever.
Tech is a phenomenal artist not just in quality of flow but in amount of fantastic songs so there's quite literally too many to cover. Not due to character count (I have a good 30k) but quite frankly due to not wanting to bore you and wanting to showcase his best. I will not run through too many songs but I do challenge Con to find a single Tech song (okay not single, let's say 4 as perhaps 1 or 2 may do it) where the flowing of his rap isn't perfect to the beat to the maximum a human could do and alters just when you're about to get bored of his flow and never too fast or too slow to fail to please your brain and ear.
I think the most fascinating thing to me is Tech's songs impress even if listening as background music and very few artists can do that with their flow, let along rap-style. He genuinely will distract you from the work you are doing if you're listening while doing something important so I recommend only listening to him when you want to focus, he's EXTREMELY hypnotising in how insanely well he flows (he gets in tune with the subconscious mind's urge to hear the voice do something but switches it up at just the right moment to draw you back out of your fantasy just a little bit to remind you that this is real life and you're listening to Tech and then sends you back to la-la-land and allows you immerse yourself in the song.
Just to be clear, if you've ever heard someone 'chop it' (that refers to his faster flow-variant) in the way Tech N9ne does, they are doing a Tech N9ne chop, it's a specific form of chopping where the speed is EXACTLY, I believe at the speed of thought almost and not too fast (like Twista) but also not slow at all when he does it. He is an original gangster in the rap game, he was one of the single first chopper-rappers and came up with the idea that flow should be prioritised. His entire label of 'Strange Music Inc.' doesn't outright say it but they are extremely focused on flow above all else. He is a father of flow-focused rap and I'm not going to go about proving that as it's not directly relevant to need to be proven in order to win the debate but unless Con denies it, I want people to know that when people talk 'old school' rap, they refer to less technical rap where the focus was on lyrical depth, gangster mentality, being poor etc etc... Tech branched off at the SAME TIME (interestingly) as Lil Wayne into the totally opposite direction. While both go 'haha I'm rich and love pussy', Tech's off-shoot of old-school was the one that even guided the likes of Eminem to become more technical and flow-focused than they used to be in my honest opinion (can't prove it, it's about timing of their style evolving versus Tech's clout increasing in the rap game). Lil Wayne's off-shoot was one where the technical parts of rap mattered less and less and only the melody and delivery should be focused on (although mumble rap as a delivery system is questionable to have evolved, not that Wayne's a pure-mumbler). Let's get to it, anyway.
Where do I start? Tech is such a machine of flowing that to decipher which is his 'best' flowing song or songs is so utterly difficult to me and I'd tend to split it apart by delivery quality. Nonetheless, I will start with his more dynamic ones (where he alters the flow to his maximum capacity and note that the artists in many of his songs are Strange Music artists he taught to flow the way they flow, not in a bad way he loves teaching how to flow to his allied artists):
Please listen on Spotify Premium, iTunes, YouTube Premium etc etc. You can physically not hear fully how well he is matching the melody's 'vibe' or beat's subliminal 'mood' in how he is flowing fully on a YouTube video quality of sound. Also, his actual voice and delivery are dulled down if not in HD/HQ (he puts l alto of effort into delivery even though he'll sacrifice it for flow). It's fine to listen though, he's phenomenal regardless and the best irrefutably, this is about your enjoyment and ability to immerse yourself into Tech and appreciate him to the highest degree possible.
(Tech N9ne x Big Scoob) ft. Just Devi D - Buss Serves < Verse 1 only (notice in Verse 2 how Scoob takes his El Chapo reference to make it flow well, Scoob is one of his many students of the flow-school of rap)
[Verse 1: Tech N9ne]
When I was nineteen, I went to go live with my auntie
And noticed she had nice things, the furniture and
All of her clothes quite clean to never be working a 9 to 5
She ran a ice cream, team
She put me on, am I wit' it Simon?
Stay remarkably grown, that's why my pockets be long
Ducked some feds, dumped packs, and then got custom threads
From serving boofas in KC we say let's buss some heads, nigga
In French village, I went 'til it, got the rent bill it
Got so heavy I no longer benched skrilla was a cinch still I had to Vince Neil it
Yell in a microphone and write them songs they like it's on
I let go they life worth of pipe is blown to flowing ignite my home I used to buss serves, now I buss words
Either way slanging or sanging whatever life I'ma just splurge
We had the spot though until it really got hot so
Escape I did like El Chapo
But Nueve still get faded, vato
I want to explain something herem he had 'pockets of flow', this is something no one in the whole rap game denies Tech N9ne was the pioneer of, everyone else is a prodigy of it at best or mimic of him at worst.:
A 'pocket of flow' is a concept Tech N9ne came up with even in his early days but definitely has used much more frequently in more recent times of his style's evolution where he will be flowing in ways that seem to constantly alter in an irritating way but then go back and forth between three-four pockets of flow where the brain is both experiencing repetition in a soothing way and yet stimulation in an attention-grabbing way at once.
You can only hear it, you can't read it, but I will refer to text to explain, if it doesn't rhyme but is flow-definitive, I will bold and underline it:
FLOW-POCKET (FP) 1
When I was nineteen
she had nice things
her clothes quite clean
She ran a ice cream
Ducked some feds, dumped packs
we say let's buss some heads
to flowing ignite my home
I used to buss serves, now I buss words
whatever life I'ma just splurge
This was all actually the same flow-pocket you were hearing repeated but it's extremely subtle and many would say it's not the same at first but listen to how he is delivering it speed-wise, intonation wise and rhyme-wise... This is actually how he begins to soothe the brain when listening to his otherwise high-pumped music.
FP2
I went to go live with my auntie and noticed
the furniture and all of her
to never be working a
In French village, I went 'til it, got the rent bill it
Got so heavy I no longer benched skrilla was a cinch still I had to Vince Neil it
FP3
She put me on, am I wit' it Simon?
Stay remarkably grown, that's why my pockets be long
Ducked some feds, dumped packs, and then got custom threads
From serving boofas in KC we say let's buss some heads
Yell in a microphone and write them songs they like it's on
I let go they life worth of pipe is blown to
We had the spot though until it really got hot so
Escape I did like El Chapo
But Nueve still get faded, vato
You get the point yes?
I can't do that for every single rap, it's going to waste time and take up space where I can post his best flows before you.
I will do the bold and underlining of key flow-pivots but I won't split up the pockets, you need to work them out for yourself. That's the beauty of his raps, they're the perfect balance between complex flow at the sake of almost-as-complex delivery. The delivery is never too simple but the flow also is as complex as he believes the average rap-fan can digest (he may be too complex for a non-rap-fan to follow with ease though but that is true for anyone who's the best at what they do in an art-type thing and non-fans of said art).
Anyways let's get going:
[Verse 1: Tech N9ne]
They lift you up and preach you <<<<< FP1
Then try to pull you down and beat you
They're no longer peaceful <<<<<< FP2
Never knew a buddy would become see-through <<< Still FP2 (you can work out the rest from here, I'm sure)
Make it up so high, they can't reach you
They just feel the wind beneath you
Camaraderie's a plum oddity, with some modesty < FP3 into FP1 'with some' FP1
People abolish he who lovin' me never idolatry wanted
But they wanna demolish me, question mark
When they know I'm blessed at heart
Try to test Tech when I poke at they chest and bark
Givin' my blood, sweat, tears and flesh in art
But they come in my circle and make a mess, then dart
I feel like they wishin' for me to be dissin' so they can be quick and then witness me (falling down)
Gotta know that'll never happen, forever rappin'
So burning it down is the mission
Dismissin' got a brand new condition, I'm (balling now)
Kill 'em in a really clever fashion
[Verse 2: Tech N9ne]
Why would a good businessman sign a artist < This is actually FP2 again and he flips between FP2 and FP3 for most of this verse
And he really believes he rhymes the hardest
And spend a lot of money and time just to start it
And you think he don't want you to make it sounds ret--
Uh, Trav ain't the target, I ain't the puppet
If you got negativity boy, you better tuck it
Givin' everything and they trippin', I had enough
It took me a while for this menace and now, fuck it
Give 'em a record deal, plus the CDs
Take 'em all on tour to give 'em the ups
Put 'em on my record, I do my verse and then I send it to them so I can give 'em the ups
In the long run, they ain't givin' a fuck
Said I ain't takin' care of my day ones
If I wasn't, they wouldn't wait to spray guns
Makin' the people think I'm wrong is way dumb, nigga
Now I'm tired, hearing my empire's (falling down)
But it's really the opposite, and I've got a clear <<<<<< FP1 again, he did it a few times since the first 2 lines, listen harder, you'll be fascinated how subtle it is.
So many more Os, fake family, fake friends, and foes (crawling now)
But Tech Ninna's outta here
[Verse 1]
Hey! I'm lookin' down on you niggas < FP1
Even though I'm 5'8″ & 195 pound on you niggas < FP1 again with speed-increase employed
So tall I can't even hear any of the sound you deliver < FP2
Me and my partners never see any of the hateful frowning you give us < FP2 before 'of the', FP1 for rest of the line
'Cause we splat little bitty braggin' wack rappers
You happen to be the bastard that got mashed up
But down to the simple fact here's a strap past ya, blast at ya
That's after the yappin' I put the cash in my last chapter, that's laughter
Half path over vast money brag, imagine a black Dracula
Smashin' 'em with the gats, upper class stature
It went to my head as my first time
To be cocky I'm just a giant when I burst rhyme
My leg is humongous, is y'all's verse mine? < I won't highlight where here he's flowing, you should be learning how it's varying but these 3 lines are all FP3
Stomping 'em out, I can't stop my leg like Robert Klein < FP2
Giant robot make you feel very low shank
I am so hot, in my skills there be propane
Why I'm gon' squash them and kill every poor thing
'Cause I'm a huge Pillsbury dough mane < all FP3
[Verse 2]
Narcissistic, hard to grip it
Dark and wicked, arts prolific
Mars with the stars, this is far lifted
Lyrics: quit the Bawitibaw; scriptures are terrific < Apart from the fourth line, all FP3, fourth being FP4 at the start.
Get a spitter with a bit of bitter marketed with < FP4
Scrilla then a fifth of Henny liquor, start to twist it
Critters sit and shiver in the slit of zillas
Pit of killers, gritters hit a clique of silly niggas are fictitious < FP2
On top of the game, I'm dropping the rain, Godly gifted
Hop in ya lane and stopping yo fame, bark is vicious
You got bars to witness, ya submissive
When I get ya brain ya thoughts is shifted
I'm incredible, highly technical, meant for triumph, raw intricate
I need medical then more science, scars and stitches
Alphabetical gems blow by him, pause a tidbit
Tech N9ne a mental giant!
I won't even go into Verse 3, it's basiclaly FP1 brought back combined with FP4.
Time to just spam links and impress. Enjoy. :) Tech's the best at what he does, you should truly sit back and enjoy it, he's fucking exhilarating to comprehend the flow of.
Basically his best stuff from a technical and ear-pleasing standpoint:
All his flows are impeccable and near-flawless to maximal levels but not all are ear-pleasing or impressive in delivery and lyricism as such. Therefore, I leave you with those as I feel they are impressive on many counts other than 'depth', he's not a very deep rapper. He even made a pro Black Live Matter rap that I feel was barely deep in what it covered but the flow is as good as ever:
Anyways, do your best Con. explain to me how someone who not only is the best but has taught many of the best on his label at flowing how to flow is... Not the best possible flow-rapper ever. Explain how to make a better flower, not the BoP is on you.
Round 5
Pro
#9
Don't consider new points brought in last round by the second-speaker fair AT ALL. I can't reply to or defend against it.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Both Pro and Con agree that Tech N9ne is a very good rapper. The disagreement though, is in the second part of the resolution: That he is the best that ever will be. Con states that it is impossible to know since one cannot look into the future. Pro does not bother to respond to this. As such, I give arguments to Con.
Pro was the only one to include a source, so he gets points for that one.
Pro also wins conduct points. Con called Pro a "sneaky little b*****d".
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Conduct; Pro.
Con called Pro a "sneaky little bastard" and then forfeited several rounds, so conduct goes to Pro.
Citations; Pro.
Pro both linked to YouTude videos and quoted lyrics, which he utilized in an effective manner to support his arguments concerning the quality of the music. Con provided no sources.
Arguments; Con.
Pro's thesis was highly complex and nigh-impossible to prove, based most of all on the "EVER will be" part of his claim. The only way to conclusively prove this would be to either have the ability to see the future or somehow provide conclusive evidence that the subject of the debate has a level of skill which is impossible for any other artist to ever achieve. This makes his claim highly questionable right off the bat.
Pro's argument centered around highlighting the music talents of the subject. He made these arguments well and supported them with ample citations.
However, Con countered by keeping his points simple, brief and to the point. Con accurately points out that the burden of proof in this situation requires either foreknowledge of the future or the ability to prove that other artists cannot achieve the same level of skill as the subject. Con points out that Pro cannot know "what the best possible flow is" during round 2, and although Pro goes on to praise the subject of the debate, he never actually proves that he can know beyond any shadow of doubt that the subject's level of skill is unobtainable by any other artist. As such, Con's argument is valid and confirms that Pro was unable to fully prove his original thesis.
*******************************************************************
>Reported Vote: Raltar // Mod action: Removed
>Points Awarded: 3 points to Con for arguments, 3 points to Pro for sources and conduct
>Reason for Decision: Con called Pro a "sneaky little bastard" and then forfeited several rounds, so conduct goes to Pro. Pro was also the only person who used a source, so he gets that category too. However, in spite of all that, Con still made the better argument, because he is correct. Unless Pro has the power to see the future or can conclusively prove that Tech has achieved a level of skill which is impossible for any other person to achieve, his claim cannot be proven.
>Reason for Mod Action: The justification for conduct points was sufficient. On sources, simply saying that Pro used a source does not demonstrate that source's relevance, which must be done. On arguments, the voter failed to survey and weigh the main arguments in the debate in order to render a verdict. The vote is insufficient. The voter could cast a sufficient vote by leaving the justification for conduct as-is, demonstrating the source's relevance to the debate, and surveying and weighing the main arguments in the debate.
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