Instigator / Pro
Points: 11

Massachusetts is a Greater State than California, as of now.

Finished

The voting period has ended

After 2 votes the winner is ...
oromagi
Debate details
Publication date
Last update
Category
Politics
Time for argument
One week
Voting system
Open voting
Voting period
One week
Point system
Four points
Rating mode
Rated
Characters per argument
3,500
Contender / Con
Points: 14
Description
BoP shared
My opponent must argue California is greater.
Greater definition that must be agreed on.
"of a more excellent or effective type or quality."
Round 1
Published:
MA=Massachusetts     CA=California

Reminder-My opponent must argue California is Greater.

Economy/Per person well being financially

Despite the CA besting MA in a few measurements MA destroys CA overall,

MA’s citizens hold several thousand dollars more in disposable income, even when you account for different state prices. MA has the 2nd highest hourly wages while CA is 8th.

MA holds a superior state debt to income ratio.

MA has the 9th lowest unemployment, but CA is 35th.

MA has the 10 lowest poverty rate, CA is 29th.   

CA citizens almost file two times more personal bankruptcies compared to MA per 100,000. 

CA has a higher homelessness rate(5th highest nationwide).   

MA is more stable fiscally, with MA ranking 30th and CA ranked 42nd.

The average CA citizen has $10,496 in credit card debt(4th most nationwide), MA has $6,277 on average(44th nationwide).

The average mortgage debt in MA is $252,207 a person, but in CA it’s $363,537.

MA is the most energy efficient state.

CA last ran a deficit of $1,898,000,000‬ for 2018, but MA in 2018 ran a $1,000,000,000 surplus, these figures appear to be controversial.

CA has more home foreclosures per capita.   

MA collects $5,000 more per person in tax revenue despite CA having a higher tax burden.


Innovation

MA is the most innovative state in the union, with a score that's more than 10 points higher than CA(72.31-62.04).

Freedom   

MA is the 23rd freest state, while CA is the 48th freest.
CA is a more racist state.

Health



MA has a better healthcare system, with it being the second best in the union.

MA holds a lower obesity rate with MA ranking 47th and CA ranking 32nd.



MA has lower heart disease death rates.

MA has the least amount of its population without health insurance CA is 19th.

Crime


MA has murder rate which is less than half of CA’s.

For crime and corrections, MA is 4th while CA is 23rd.

MA has the 3rd  least amount of human trafficking cases per capita, CA has the 2nd most for all of the states.


Quality of Life

MA ranks 8th statewide, while CA ranks 19th

Another source actually put CA 50th for quality of life with MA ranking 25th.

MA ranked 4th for opportunity while CA ranked 23rd

MA is the 2nd best state for raising kids, California is 19th.

The “Human Development Index” put MA 1st nationwide, while CA ranked 18th. 
   

Education

CA has  highschool graduation percentage that is 51st nationwide(overseas territories are counted), a bachelor's degree attainment percentage that’s 15th nationwide, and an advanced degree attainment that’s also 15th nationwide. MA is 19th for highschool, 2nd for bachelors, and 2nd for advanced degree attainment.

MA has the best education system in the country, CA is 21st.

CA is tied for the worst teacher to pupil ratio nationwide, while MA is 9th.

MA has the best math scores, while CA has the 9th worst. MA also has the 2nd best reading scores, the 5th best science scores, and the 3rd best writing scores, ranking above CA for all of them.

This is merely my case, I hope to go deeper in later rounds.





Published:
PRO=MA/CON=CA is GREATER

Let's note that we're debating which US state is greater (more excellent/effective) but PRO invested much of R1 towards the avg residential experience in each, which, sure, holds some part of the question of greatness but hardly to the degree PRO makes it.  After all, the avg resident of Monaco enjoys higher wages, better standard of living, etc than the avg resident of France, but few historians will remember Monaco as therefore GREATER. When it comes to a question of greatness, the size and the scale of excellent achievements, effective accomplishments matters rather more than the comforts of those doing the achieving.

Over 80% of Massachusetts' population lives in the Greater Boston metropolitan region.


Round 2
Published:
I want to thank Oro for his response, I will now focus on rebuttals, I’d implore my opponent to do the same.
 
PRO invested much of R1 towards the avg residential experience in each, which, sure, holds some part of the question of greatness but hardly to the degree PRO makes it.  After all, the avg resident of Monaco enjoys higher wages, better standard of living, etc than the avg resident of France, but few historians will remember Monaco as therefore GREATER.
 
Obviously this is an act of looking at all aspects though, I could state that China is greater than America because it has a higher GDP PPP, is bigger geographically, and has a larger population, but really it undeniably is more important to look at wages, land uses, and quality of life in the case of America and China to truly grasp greatness. A lot of greatness comes down to virtuosity as well, and if we look at freedoms and racism, MA wins.
 
Let’s not forget that MA has superior infrastructure, with  more than half of CA dams being unstable. To clarify CA has the fifth worst.
 
CA has 53/435 reps in US House- 55 electoral votes. [MA = 9/435]
 
True, but on a national level CA citizens hold the 49th highest per person voting power, MA ranks much higher. So if every citizen in MA has a higher voting power, CA  really comes up short.
 
Health
 
This argument is faulty, MA has a higher life expectancy for all racial groups listed(Whites, African Americans, Asians, and Latinos). So, why does CA have a higher life expectancy? Well, because CA has far more Asians(14.37% vs 6.9%). Asians by far have higher life expectancies than other races, but Asians in MA live longer than Asians in CA. So, for any prominent racial group, you ought to prefer MA over CA. Also, the debate states “as of now”, so whether it is increasing or decreasing is irrelevant.
 
Land Use
 
My opponents points about airports and national parks are faulty. States merely build things they need or want, MA doesn’t need or want obscene amounts of air ports and national parks, this is not indicative of MA not being great.
 
Innovation and business
 
California business
You point to the successful CA businesses but it ranks below MA if we look at the top states for business, this even accounts for tech innovation. Let’s not forget that MA ranked 4th for opportunity while CA ranked 23rd, and MA has more. CA is the 50th business friendly state and 50th for cost of doing business as of 2019. 
 
Innovation
 
You point to innovation and tech, but MA has superior innovation(MA ranked 1st) and science/tech(MA ranked 1st).
 
Economy/Per person well being financially
 
GDP

GDP doesn’t really show the fiscal wellbeing of the regions populous, which is why regions strive to grow their economy in the first place. GDP really shows productivity as a whole as seen by the definition(listed below), and if we break GDP down to a per person measurement, MA is first and CA is 12th, although merely observing GDP/GDP per capita is faulty, but the per person measurement is superior because it doesn’t just observe raw productivity. China has a massive GDP, but not one person would say the Chinese populous is thriving fiscally. observing income per person is superior.
 
GDP definition-”the total value of goods produced and services provided in a country during one year.”

Published:
thx, Trent

PRO=MA/CON=CA is GREATER

I.  The resolution is CA v. MA, NOT Californians v. Bay Staters

A. PRO leverages avg resident stats instead of overall state stats because CA is obviously greater
B. PRO mostly argues avg Bostonian is richer than the avg. Californian. 

  • Con concedes the stat but
    • rejects the premise that per capita wealth is the primary measure of state excellence, efficiency (greatness).  
  • Using PRO's args, Wash DC and Rhode Island are greatest in US> 
    • Like MA, these are small samplings of richer urban districts
    • MA's prosperity is entirely dependent on other states (like CA) providing food, energy, cheap labor.
    • New York City could improve its fiscal outlook considerably by forsaking the rust belt remainder of the state but would NYC be greater by secession?  No.
  • Using PRO's arg, the wealthiest city in US, Atherton CA, exceeds MA in wealth, healthcare, per cap stats.  Therefore, Atherton is greater than MA and also only one small part of CA.
C. CON organizes all of PRO's arguments about
  • hourly wages,
  • debt to income ration,
  • unemployment,
  • foreclosures,
  • credit card debt,
  • mortgage debt,
  • poverty &
    • homeless &
    • bankruptcy rates, and
  • tax revenues
       to a single, less impressive stat: 


D. Likewise, most of PRO's arguments regarding healthcare, and education 
  • are more a reflection of fiscal gerrymandering of one dense and prosperous urban region than excellent or efficient policy. 
  • Yes, we often see better hospital coverage and student/teacher ratios in urban areas.
E. PRO concedes CA's superior political influence but argues per capita voting power

  • Again, we are debating CA v MA not Californians v Bay Staters.
  • Again, a state's greatness is more than per capita stats.
II. PRO argues:

A lot of greatness comes down to virtuosity as well, and if we look at freedoms and racism, MA wins.


A. PRO claims
  • that CA is more racist based on survey of tweets containing anti-black slurs
    • by which methodology Baltimore is most anti-black city- in spite of 2/3rds black pop
  • We would expect MA to have fewer racists because MA is 80% white meaning less racial conflict. 
    • CA is 37% white, 39% Hispanic, one of only 5 states with a minority majority.
B. Last year, the Boston Globe's vaunted "Spotlight" team ran a Pulitzer Prize nominated in-depth series on racism in Boston reporting:

  • Google the phrase “Most racist city,” and Boston pops up more than any other place, time and time again.
  • A national survey commissioned by the Globe this fall found that among eight major cities, black people ranked Boston as least welcoming to people of color. More than half — 54 percent — rated Boston as unwelcoming.
  • African-Americans in Greater Boston have a median net worth of just $8.
              [Black median net worth in LA = $45,000]

  • That is, according to Boston's oldest and largest newspaper, MA is more racist than most of US including CA.





Round 3
Published:



Raw Figures > Avg Figures Rebuttal

PRO leverages avg resident stats instead of overall state stats because CA is obviously greater
 Avg results are just as relevant. Let’s look to countries, there are valid arguments to be made to 
state Canada is Greater than America(perhaps my opponent agrees), America has a larger 
GDP but several avg results like poverty and homeownership rates make this debate valid. So 
asserting that Raw Figures > Avg Figures is faulty, and this makes up a vast amount of Con’s 
case. Sadly I’m left little to respond to, my opponent largely acknowledges what I state and 
effectively restates Raw Figures > Avg Figures.

The resolution is CA v. MA, NOT Californians v. Bay Staters

IDK why you’re arguing this, I’ve never argued Bay stater VS. CA

Pro Must Hold that Rhode Island is the Best State Rebuttal
While you could argue this, I’ve never stated that raw numbers are not valid at all, just that avg 
results are just as valid. If average figures are largely irrelevant to greatness then arguing that 
Canada or France are greater than America is uncompetitive, but you can make 

MA's prosperity is entirely dependent on other states (like CA) providing food, energy, cheap labor.

You could say this but resources can always be bought, something MA doesn’t have any 
problem doing seeing how they ran a good surplus in 2018(1 billion dollars), while CA last ran a 
deficit of $1,898,000,000‬ for 2018(coming from a government website). Looking to projections of 
surpluses/deficits are faulty, in the province of Ontario a 15 billion dollar deficit was projected 
but it wound up cutting in half to 7.4 billion.

Racism Rebuttal

Racism/Equality

My opponent lumps Boston with MA and L.A with CA. Black income in MA is the 8th highest, CA 
isn’t in the top 10. The racial income gap in CA is 48th best, MA is 29th. Also, why look at 
racism? Well because we want to evaluate equality right, well MA has more equality overall.

Your Grievance with my Source

Frankly, I’d say my source is valid, because of that we now know that MA is far more welcoming 
to black people. Your point about Baltimore validates my source as racism impacts the mental 
health of blacks. It just so happens that almost 20% of Baltimorians have a mental illness and 
11% have a substance abuse disorder. 


Your Argument

B. Last year, the Boston Globe's vaunted "Spotlight" team ran a Pulitzer Prize nominated 

in-depth series on racism in Boston reporting:

  • Google the phrase “Most racist city,” and Boston pops up more than any other place, time and time again.
  • A national survey commissioned by the Globe this fall found that among eight major cities, black people ranked Boston as least welcoming to people of color. More than half — 54 percent — rated Boston as unwelcoming.
  • African-Americans in Greater Boston have a median net worth of just $8.
 
---Your source doesn’t state any of this, I’ve already proven for racial wage equality, racist rhetoric, and overall equality that MA is better.
 
Organizing My Arguments
 
This organization is faulty. States like NY have high household incomes but high mortgage debt. Having both is crucial.
 
Great Definition that was Agreed on Via the Description
 
"of a more excellent or effective type or quality."
 
While raw numbers get you somewhere, obviously if we are to look at a state like CA, there falling short to demonstrate excellence or effectiveness to it's own populous.

Published:
PRO=MA/CON=CA is GREATER

PRO misleadingly recasts CON's objection as RAW vs. AVG figures. (What does raw even mean in this context?) The debate is which State is greater.  PRO claims "never argued" Bay Stater vs. Californian but if you remove all the stats describing avg citizens (Bay Stater) experience in R1, PRO's argument is nil.  Again, CON does not claim individual exp. is irrelevant but there are many important factors that CON simply refuses to engage.

PRO relies on the metaphor of Canada vs. US. That works well enough.  Was the 20th the American Century or the Canadian Century?  Were the advents of electricity and autos and movies and radios and TVs and PCs and McDonald's and Coca-Cola and Men on the Moon (you know-  modernity) primarily US achievements or Canadian?  By any normal understanding of the word, the US is greater than Canada- more productive, more excellent, more powerful, more efficient, more influential. The same arg applies to US vs. China in R2. Applying those same standards to MA vs. CA, California is obviously much greater.

PRO asks that we judge states by freedom but uses Koch Brothers' statistics that mostly considers tax freedom.  An equally conservative think tank with far less bias (Goldwater Institute) examines actual liberties granted in the texts of each State's constitution and ranks CA far higher than MA.  When it comes to essential considerations like voting rights and corruption CA consistently outranks MA as more free.

PRO asks that we judge states by racism but uses a terrible twitter survey instead of evidence.  CON challenged this source as unscientific and PRO oddly argued that mental health is an indicator of racism.  Since MA ranks as 42nd for prevalance of Mental Illness vs CA's 21st,  MA is still more racist using PRO's strange arg.  PRO's argument is essentially that because MA has relatively few non-white people it is therefore less racist.  CA is not just the most diverse state, it is the most ethnically, culturally diverse subnational entity in the world.

PRO entirely drops CON's evidence of MA racism, falsely claiming "Your source doesn’t state any of this" when all statistics are evident in the top 15 paragraphs of article.

PRO's entire argument depends heavily on cherry-picking data from weak sources and ignoring the big picture.  For example,

  • PRO falsely claims MA has superior infrastructure by cherry-picking data dam information from "Aggregates Manager" site  ignoring his own sources' demonstration that CA has safer roads and bridges than MA and drivers spend half as much on them. Meanwhile, big picture sources like  USA Today or USN&WR give CA a better infrastructure score than MA.
  • PRO calls MA most innovative state by quoting wallethub.com survey, which skews towards financial consulting rather than an objective analysis from an established source like Bloomberg (which consistently ranks CA as first in innovation).
  • PRO discounts CA superior life expectancy by appealing for the exclusion of Asians from the stat.
Worse, PRO entirely ignored CON's best argument- that MA residents spend 10.5 hrs each day entertaining and informing themselves using media invented, developed, and managed primarily by Californians- TV, movies, video games, internet.  We never even got around to  better weather, diversity of culture, sports, lifestyle. MA is old US.  CA is inventing the future US.

Pls. vote CON: CA is greater!


Added:
--> @Ragnar
Thanks for the vote. Can't say I disagree with your conclusion.
Instigator
#16
Added:
--> @Virtuoso, @Ragnar, @Ramshutu
Last chance. No votes for a short well-contested debate.
Contender
#15
Added:
BUMP
Things that go 'bump' in the night
Should not really give one a fright.
It's the hole in each ear
That lets in the fear,
That, and the absence of light!
-Spike Milligan
Contender
#14
Added:
--> @oromagi
Excuse the few structural errors, my argument didn't paste correctly.
Instigator
#13
Added:
--> @Trent0405
its a a complex psychological condition, i mean situation ;)
#12
Added:
--> @PaulVerliane
Not surprised you know this.
Instigator
#11
Added:
--> @Trent0405
poor guys on the spectrum, but he is a bonafide Savant syndrome, guess you cant call them idiot savants any more
#10
Added:
--> @PaulVerliane
I'm aware, learned this from possibly the wisest human being in existence, in this debate--
https://www.debateart.com/debates/1427/massachusetts-is-the-most-prosperous-and-ideal-sate-in-the-union.
Instigator
#9
Added:
well according to the legantum prosperity index massachsetts is the pentultimate state https://usprosperity.net/
#8
Added:
--> @oromagi
8 hours left, you should have enough time if you haven't started your argument.
Instigator
#7
Added:
--> @Trent0405
Sources for links: CON's R1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California#Federal_representation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_life_expectancy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts's_congressional_districts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_parks_of_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_U.S._states_and_sovereign_states_by_GDP
https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/statistics/
https://beef2live.com/story-states-produce-food-value-0-107252
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_California
https://www.nass.usda.gov/Publications/AgCensus/2017/Full_Report/Volume_1,_Chapter_1_State_Level/Massachusetts/mav1.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_airports_by_passenger_traffic
https://www.geographyrealm.com/fortune-500-list-by-state-for-2015/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_California
https://www.business.org/business/startup/most-innovative-states/
https://www.eia.gov/state/data.php?sid=CA
https://www.eia.gov/state/data.php?sid=MA
Contender
#6
Added:
--> @oromagi
This is gunna be good.
Instigator
#5
Added:
I love Boston- my sister the cop lives there. I'm wearing a Boston Aquarium hoodie right now.
.....but, Mass greater than Cali? What are you, nuts?
Contender
#4
Added:
--> @bmdrocks21
Would be ideal if it just floated away
Instigator
#3
Added:
I don't recognize California as being part of the union.
#2
#2
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
Great job both of you. Ragnar beat me to this already and said like everything I was going to say, but I have a few things to add...
1. Oromagi was a little bit more organized in his delivery. Trent was listing facts, but Oromagi has sub points to those facts.
2. Oromagi argued with Trent in a general sense, but Trent argued with Oromagi directly, and I think a direct argument is better in this case.
3. None of you guys really said why those benefits matter. Sure, one state may have a better system than the other state, but why does that matter? Both of you kinda skimmed on why stuff matters, but most of the part were just listing facts with no context. I have no knowledge of this topic, and without the why part in the debate, I feel like the arguments were kind of plain, and unrealatable.
So in the end for me, I'm going to go with a tie.
Good job both of you though.
#1
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
First of all, both sides did really well.
I am not reading all the links but generally trusting peoples word unless there's a dispute. Innovation was a place where pro made the mistake of responding to challenge by repeating his link, without giving any analysis of why MA did more for innovation than the tech and film industries based out of CA. The source point leans toward con due to using con's own evidence to show better roadways (which relate more to the average experience which pro has argued), but I am not clicking through enough of them to consider myself justified were I to award the point.
To me this debate boils down to pro arguing the average experience of people living in a state vs con arguing for maximal contributions of each state. They of course clash, but they never come to any agreement on which standard is better. As a voter, I have to take a side, to which I am going to use an analogy... When Nux trips and Immortan Joe calls him "mediocre," it's not to say he's complete garbage, rather he would expect the average person to trip but Joe demands excellence, and when Nux fails he has to go murder Imperator Furiosa himself.
As can be guessed from my analogy, I am treating "of a more excellent or effective type or quality" to favor the maximal more than the mediocre. California giving so much more to the US economy (even if on average they have a lower disposable income), their tech sector, their national parts (which MA validly chooses not to do, but I consider their presence to imply quality), and more. A couple factors I really don't favor California on are pure size and population (which does affect the electoral votes, which is something I would consider in their favor... About like if we were comparing boxers and one had much longer arms). The racism angle fell flat to me, as a state containing some racist people isn't usually defined by the racism, and we're trying to analyze the comparative greatness; which isn't going to be ruined by a blemish (were one state being lead by the KKK it would be a lot more than a blemish, but Twitter posts which are likely skewed by a few jerks who post a lot, is just not enough).