Atheism and Humanism are the Bloodiest Religion Ever
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 1 vote and with 5 points ahead, the winner is...
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- Two weeks
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
How Humanism (atheism, Nazism, communism, naturalism, evolution) has destroyed millions of lives.
0.0 Problems with the topic itself
- Atheism and humanism are not the same. Some religious people adopt humanistic standpoints,[1] and although most atheists are also humanists, atheism itself makes no inherent moral claims.
- Neither atheism nor humanism is a religion. Neither has a central creed or set of central dogmas; all it takes to be an atheist is to reject the existence of deities, while all it takes to be humanist is to accept some form of moral philosophy “centered on human interests or values.”[2]
- If things are good because God commands them, then morality is arbitrary; God could, at any point, declare murder to be right and charity to be wrong, and it would become the case.
- If God commands certain things because they are good, then morality is simply an attribute of events, actions, and intentions that can exist independently of God.[10]
- If God is inherently good and therefore will only command things that are good, then morality is arbitrary again: in lieu of an external source of morality, what makes God good? Is God good because he just is? Then why can’t we define certain moral principles as being things that just are correct?
P1. Atheism caused communism
Evidence for P1: The importance of materialism to Communism; communism’s denial of man’s sinfulness, man’s dignity, and man’s right to private property; the praise given by communist writers to Darwinian evolution
P2. Communism caused mass killings and starvation
C. Atheism caused mass killings and starvation
In the second case, communist leaders simply used tools that all authoritarians have used, including the Christian monarchs that purged the opposing denominations in the wake of the Protestant Reformation. This is likewise not related to atheism.
2.1 Claim: Christianity was bloodier than Atheism throughout history
(If a source gives a range of death tolls, the mean of the two is taken)
Thirty Years’ War: 8,000,000 [15]
French Wars of Religion: 3,000,000 [16]
War of the Three Kingdoms: 591,500 [16]
Eighty Years’ War: 650,000 [16]
German Peasants’ War: 150,000 [16]
Irish Republican Army (Protestant-Catholic tensions): 3,700 [17]
Taiping Rebellion (instigated by a sect/cult derived from Christianity): 31,622,777 [18]
Crusades: 2,000,000 [18]
Witchcraft trials: 45,000 [19]
Encomienda system, made possible by enmity against Muslims and South American indigenous groups caused in part by their lack of Christian belief: 8,500,000 [20]
Adding the above numbers together, I arrive at the death toll of 5,356,2977 (~53 million). This is decidedly higher than the death toll of atheism arrived at by removing the deaths that are irrelevant to atheism from the list given by Proposition.
[2] “Definition of HUMANISM.” [Online]. Available: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/humanism. [Accessed: 09-Nov-2019].
[3] “What is Humanism?,” Humanist Canada. .
[4] “Definition of Humanism,” American Humanist Association. [Online]. Available: https://americanhumanist.org/what-is-humanism/definition-of-humanism/. [Accessed: 09-Nov-2019].
[5] “Medieval antisemitism,” Wikipedia. 20-Oct-2019.
[6] “Martin Luther - ‘The Jews & Their Lies.’” [Online]. Available: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/martin-luther-quot-the-jews-and-their-lies-quot. [Accessed: 09-Nov-2019].
[7] Norman H. Baynes, ed. and ed Norman H. Baynes, The Speeches of Adolf Hitler: April 1922-August 1939, vol. 1. New York: Oxford University Press, 1942.
[8] “Spanish Civil War.” [Online]. Available: https://www2.gwu.edu/~erpapers/teachinger/glossary/spanish-civil-war.cfm. [Accessed: 09-Nov-2019].
[9] V. H. E. Centre, “‘Enemy Aliens’: The Internment of Jewish Refugees in Canada, 1940-1943.” [Online]. Available: http://www.museevirtuel.ca/edu/ViewLoitCollection.do?method=preview&lang=EN&id=25457. [Accessed: 09-Nov-2019].
[10] “Euthyphro dilemma - RationalWiki.” [Online]. Available: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma#Third_horn:_Special_Pleading. [Accessed: 09-Nov-2019].
[11] “He who does not work, neither shall he eat,” Wikipedia. 15-Apr-2019.
[12] “Characteristics of U.S. Abortion Patients in 2014 and Changes Since 2008,” Guttmacher Institute, 21-Apr-2016. [Online]. Available: https://www.guttmacher.org/report/characteristics-us-abortion-patients-2014. [Accessed: 09-Nov-2019].
[13] “Abolishing Abortion: The History of the Pro-Life Movement in America | The American Historian.” [Online]. Available: https://www.oah.org/tah/issues/2016/november/abolishing-abortion-the-history-of-the-pro-life-movement-in-america/. [Accessed: 09-Nov-2019].
[14] “Wells and Haeckel’s Embryos.” [Online]. Available: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/wells/haeckel.html. [Accessed: 09-Nov-2019].
[15] “Thirty Years’ War,” Wikipedia. 28-Oct-2019.
[16] “European wars of religion,” Wikipedia. 04-Nov-2019.
[17] “9/11 not as bad as IRA, says Doris Lessing,” 23-Oct-2007.
[18] “List of wars and anthropogenic disasters by death toll - Wikipedia.” [Online]. Available: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll. [Accessed: 08-Nov-2019].
[19] “List of people executed for witchcraft,” Wikipedia. 08-Oct-2019.
[20] “Encomienda,” Wikipedia. 08-Nov-2019.
- The ideologue
- The regular atheist
- Mutual defense alliances that helped expand the scope of what could have been a local war
- Imperialism causing conflict between the various world powers over foreign holdings
- It is of note that European empires began holding foreign territories long before Darwin
- Militarism causing arms buildup
- Independence movements in Bosnia and Herzegovina
- Resentment in Germany over the Treaty of Versailles, which blamed the war on Germany and racked Germany economic burden for reparations
- The economic failure of Weimar Germany
- The failure of the League of Nations to act against Japan and Italy for their imperialist actions, which emboldened the fascist dictators
- Pro fails to mention that it was evolutionary scientists themselves who refuted pseudoscientific racist claims. For instance, in the context of the Stephen J. Gould quote that Pro cites, Gould himself argues that the “data [in support of racism] were worthless” [13]. That’s why the biological field, dominated by scientists who accept the overwhelming evidence for evolution, has helped overturn racism.
- While race indeed only exists as a social construct, it is incorrect to say that microevolution did not occur to humans. When we say that races do not exist, we mean that they are a bad way of dividing geographically-linked genetic differences [14]. We do not mean that genetic differences caused by microevolution do not exist over geographical regions, because they do—people from Africa, on average, have darker skin than people from Europe.
[2] “Religious views of Adolf Hitler,” Wikipedia. 20-Nov-2019.
[3] C. Gracie, “The Chinese rebel who thought he was Jesus’s brother,” BBC News, 18-Oct-2012.
[4] Norman H. Baynes, ed. and ed Norman H. Baynes, “Speech Delivered at Stuttgart 15 February 1933,” in The Speeches of Adolf Hitler: April 1922-August 1939, vol. 1, New York: Howard Fertig, 1969, p. 240.
[5] R. Steigmann-Gall, “Apostasy or religiosity? The cultural meanings of the Protestant vote for Hitler,” Soc. Hist., vol. 25, no. 3, pp. 267–284, Oct. 2000.
[6] “World population - Wikipedia.” [Online]. Available: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population. [Accessed: 23-Nov-2019].
[7] “Bleaching away what ails you: The Genesis II Church is still selling Miracle Mineral Supplement as a cure-all – Science-Based Medicine.” [Online]. Available: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/miracle-mineral-supplement-as-a-cure-all/. [Accessed: 23-Nov-2019].
[8] L. Maggioni, R. von Bothmer, G. Poulsen, and E. Lipman, “Domestication, diversity and use of Brassica oleracea L., based on ancient Greek and Latin texts,” Genet. Resour. Crop Evol., vol. 65, no. 1, pp. 137–159, Jan. 2018.
[9] “Evolution and Philosophy: Social Darwinism.” [Online]. Available: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolphil/social.html. [Accessed: 24-Nov-2019].
[10] “What were the causes of World War One? - BBC Bitesize.” [Online]. Available: https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/topics/zqhyb9q/articles/znhhrj6. [Accessed: 24-Nov-2019].
[11] B. Blomberg, “CAUSES OF WORLD WAR I,” p. 31.
[12] “World War Two - Causes,” History, 06-Jun-2014. [Online]. Available: https://www.historyonthenet.com/world-war-two-causes. [Accessed: 24-Nov-2019].
[13] S. J. Gould, in Ontogeny and Phylogeny, p. 127.
[14] T.-N. Coates, “What We Mean When We Say ‘Race Is a Social Construct,’” The Atlantic, 15-May-2013. [Online]. Available: https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/05/what-we-mean-when-we-say-race-is-a-social-construct/275872/. [Accessed: 24-Nov-2019].
Indeed, the reason why abhorrent ideologies today rely on rejecting religion rather than distorting religion is likely because today’s scientific advancements have permitted that to be the case. Before that, they would have instead appealed to religion for support, and distorted it to fit their goals. This is what happened in the aftermath of the Protestant Reformation and what continues to happen today in the Middle East. In the case of religion, however, it can be said that religion remains culpable when this type of distortion of religion occurs, since religion is dogmatic by nature and the distortion of religion is therefore more resistant to reason and personal conscience than a simple replacement thereof with a secular ideology.
0 Problems with the topic itself
Con does the logical thing in pointing out extra layers of the resolution, namely that for pro to win he must prove that non-religions are actually a singular religion.
I’ll fully forgive pro the plurality error.
The defense that all those groups are religions, remains dubious. Con repeats his bit here that they fail to have dogma to justify and reinforce their crimes; rather they must look outside themselves such as to “societal and economic issues.”
1. Rebuttal
Con immediately catches that pro’s claims outright refuse to draw a connection in support of the resolution (even under pro’s understanding), claiming sin did it, instead of priests of atheism or whatever.
Massive credit to con for translating different claims into testable syllogisms. One highlight which stands out under this is “68% of women who engage in abortion are religious.”
2. Christianity
Con shows a causal link between the deaths and a religion. That he accurately predicts the defense (‘Religious wars started by "Christians" are not consistent with Christianity.’ AKA they weren’t True Scotsmen!), and pre-refutes it with both logical support of the connection, and the fairness angle (pro wants a double standard).
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Arguments:
See above review of key points. A lot of points spiraled out of control, leaving key needed replies absent or even single line in a much later round. This is why Gish Gallops are best avoided.
It needs to be said that pro returning in R4 did not offer any substantive defense of his case, which he had promised two rounds prior.
Sources:
Giving this to con. Mainly I could actually read his sources. Pro’s made his argument feel potentially copy/pasted from somewhere else. On con’s, a key thing became his sources on abortion which pro claims religious people do not get (and oddly counts it among the death toll), in spite of the direct evidence offered. The Guttmacher Institute one gave con a massive lead here, and I found OAH one extremely interesting for teaching me about the former abortion laws with particular note of the Quickening rule.
Conduct:
Each side missed two rounds. This leans slightly in pro’s favor for having waived one of them instead of outright forfeiting.
That's literally the first thing con does.
This debate seems like it needs a K to point out that atheism and humanism aren't the same thing, so it's impossible for them to be the bloodiest religion ever.