Instigator / Pro
Points: 14

The United States is greater than Canada.

Finished

The voting period has ended

After 2 votes the winner is ...
Trent0405
Debate details
Publication date
Last update
Category
Politics
Time for argument
One week
Voting system
Open voting
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Four points
Rating mode
Rated
Characters per argument
3,500
Contender / Con
Points: 11
Description
BoP shared
Round 1
Published:
Definitions

Great-of an extent, amount, or intensity considerably above the normal or average.(source)

Does my opponent agree to this?

Military

America is the largest military power in the world, Canada is merely the 21st largest. Canada is closer to Algeria than America here. America is also one of 9 countries to own nukes, Canada doesn’t have nukes.

Economy

America is the world's largest economy. America is nearly 1,200% wealthier than Canada actually. America is better off by $16,431‬, per personIf GDP wasn’t enough, America enjoys the highest disposable income, and the highest disposable household income. But it doesn’t end there, America has the 4th highest average wages, Canada has the 12th highest. I guarantee my opponent will point to poverty in America being higher by a few percentage points, but America’s poor live better than any developed country. We also see American’s holding larger houses than Canadians on Average.   

Innovation

To continue, America has the most technologically powerful economy in the world, as well as being the second most innovative country just behind South Korea. The World Bank put Canada in 19th for science and technology, with America ranking 8th.

Natural resources

Canada’s natural resources are worth 715 billion dollars, in America it’s 45 trillion dollars. This means the worth of America’s natural resources is 62 times larger, this is much greater than the population difference. 

Tourism/Culture

Tourism

America accepts nearly 4 times more tourists than Canada, and despite America only ranking 3rd internationally, America makes more money from tourists than any other country. 

Culture/Media             

America produces the 4th most movies and American films generate the most money, so America does much better than Canada here. America also has much more cultural influence. To continue, America has the single largest music market.

Soft Power

America has the most soft power of any country.

Agriculture

Here it isn’t even close. America leads the world in corn, almond, berry, grapefruit, strawberry, turkey, beef, and chicken production.

History

America has a superior heritage, being ahead by 20 places.

I look forward to an excellent debate over Canada and America. I'd implore my opponent to outline his case in round 1 as I have.

Published:
Greetings, and thanks for this wonderful debate. Since my opponent didn't define, I'll assume that "greatest" could also have relatable historic or future references. Let's start off with some clash...


A) CLASH

My opponent stated...

America is the largest military power in the world.
And that's a good thing because? You see, here in the mind of a Squid, we like to promote peace, and we believe that violence is never the solution. Yes, having a military is always good, but having the strongest killing machine in the world is nothing to brag about. In fact, America's military have killed at least 200 000 civilians in wars. Now tell me, is that something to brag about?

America's spending half their budget, on violence, while Canada only spends a mere 1.2%. Why? Because any more would lead to higher taxes, and cutting revenue from priority spending like healthcare or social programs. So in this case, smaller is actually better.

Oh, and historically speaking, no offense, but, did Canada ever lose to Vietnam rice farmers?

History
Let's analyse some of the things that happened in America's history:

  • Trail of Tears - 1831/37
    • Displacement 46 000 Native Americans
    • Killed thousands, including 4 000 Cherokee
    • Many more displacement events followed
  • Dred Scott decision
    • Ruled that African people could not become citizens
    • And they weren't protected under the Constitution
  • Not a single major civil war
  • Ended slavery 30 years before US
  • No major wars with Native tribes
  • And more!
Economy [non-chronological order]
Although you point out all the benefits of America's economy, you seemed to miss the benefits about Canada's economy. True, America has one of the strongest economies in the world, but what are the people actually getting out of it? How is the money actually being used? This brings me up to my first argument -- that Canada's society is better than America's.


B) CANADA'S BETTER SOCIETY


I. Population's Happiness

Here's a fact. Canada is in the list of the top 10 happiest countries in the world! Where's America? Somewhere down there. In fact, America is currently dropping places each year!

II. Healthcare

According to Bloomberg:

The U.S. life expectancy of 78.8 years ranks 27th. It has the fourth highest infant mortality rate in the OECD, the sixth highest maternal mortality rate and the ninth highest likelihood of dying at a younger age from a host of ailments, including cardiovascular disease and cancer
Ouch. And keep in mind that America spends the most on healthcare out of any other country in the world. Canada on the other hand has a 2.9 year higher life expectancy, 2.2 less suicides per 100 000 people, and a 12.4% less obese population. Oh, and Canada spends half of what America does on healthcare. Talk about well spent money.

In fact, half a million families go bankrupt each year in America due to expensive medical bills. So, not to brag or anything, but in Canada it's free.

III. Countries Leaders

Let's compare what the two leaders achieved for society's good.

Justin Trudeau:
Donald "Jenius" Trump:

No further explanation needed.


C) CONCLUSION

A lot was covered in the first round. From economics, to social, and political topics.

In the next round, I will be presenting my second argument -- how Canada's current political and economic trend is better than America's. I will also be doing a lot of clashing.

Thank you.
Round 2
Published:
Military

America is the largest military power in the world.

“And that's a good thing because?”

It is an affirmative good to be able to use your power to stop foreign forces, and to protect your allies. Actually, America protects Canada, showing how much better America is, if we can’t trust Canada to protect it’s own borders, how can it be greater? 


Your source doesn’t state the U.S is the sole cause. It looks at deaths in Pakistan even, America hasn’t been at war with Pakistan recently(if ever). It does look at Iraq/Afghanistan, but there are also terrorist groups causing much of this. But, the sheer fact that America has the ability to intervene militarily, is an example of American greatness.

 half their budget, on violence, while Canada only spends a mere 1.2%.

Your statement is false, America spends 15% of the tax revenue on defence(Canada spends 7%). Canada gets away with spending less because America fits the bill for the Canadian military.

Happiness

There are contradicting sources on this. Many place America ahead of Canada for happiness. I would say America is happier, Americans are able to enjoy cinemas far more often for example. As well as Americans just making more money, and income is highly linked to happiness. So Americans are indeed happier.

Healthcare

My opponents arguments are sound but off target in my opinion. Health outcomes are largely more indicative of a nation's healthcare system as this source states. 

Health Outcomes

American’s have the highest cancer survival rates. America bests Canada for breast cancer, for male colorectal cancer, for female colorectal cancer, and for prostate cancer. American’s have much lower wait times as well. Americans wait about 30 days less to see a gynecologist, about 10 days less to see a cardiologist, and 113 days less to see an orthodontist. On the whole for specialty care, Americans wait about 42 days less.  

Life Expectancy

If you subtract fatal injuries like car accidents, America trounces every other country for life expectancy.

Infant Mortality

The U.S. ranks high on the infant mortality list largely because we actually measure neonatal deaths, notably in premature infant fatalities.”

half a million families go bankrupt each year in America due to expensive medical bills.

And yet Canadian personal bankruptcy rates are higher. Also, 15% of Canadians 55 or over declared bankruptcy for medical reasons. So Americans file less bankruptcies, and have higher quality, and more efficient care.

Economy

America has one of the strongest economies in the world, but what are the people actually getting out of it?

I already said that they’re getting better wages and more disposable income out of it.

If you look at household debt to income, America is doing much better.

World Leader

I see a temporary leader as being inconsequential to greatness.

Created the first ever gender balanced cabinet

This is remarkably sexist actually. Women are 50% of the cabinet, but only make up 27% of all elected officials.

History

Low on characters but I’ll say this. Pointing to anecdotal cases doesn’t grant Canada a better heritage. Both nations have a troubled past, Canada kept residential schools for 23 years longer than America. Canada turned away a refugee ship with 900 Jews on it in WW2. Countries do bad things. America has more influence. America also has 35,000 museums, Canada has 2,000, so America has a superior heritage. Some US history museums see 3.8 million visitors, about 10% of Canada’s population.

Published:
Hello Trent and thanks for following. Let's get right to it...


A) CLASH

Funny how you used that source for your text. The very first sentence on that link is "America DOES NOT protect Canada." I'm not sure what happened there, so it would be great if you could explain why you used that link.

It looks at deaths in Pakistan even, America hasn’t been at war with Pakistan recently
The civilians that died in Pakistan, were probably caught in the cross fire from American fighting terrorist groups, or American supported troop fire. Either the case, many civilians have died from American troops.
Canada spends 7%
No, our military doesn't get 7% of our GDP. That's how much they spent, not received.

Happiness
Although the linked you used to to rank America's happiness was not done in an official way by certified professional, but instead by a group of people. The source I used is from the UN, and with many in agreement.

You also mentioned income, but income alone is not enough to boost a country's happiness to a significant degree.

American’s have much lower wait times as well
Yes, but half a million people don't go bankrupt each year in Canada. You also mention how America is leading Canada in cancer treatments, but Canada beats America in almost every other way.

If you subtract fatal injuries like car accidents
Whoa, you can't just take car crash deaths away. If X is bad and that makes Country bad, then I just won't count X. That's not how stuff works!

The U.S. ranks high on the infant mortality list largely because we actually measure neonatal deaths, notably in premature infant fatalities
Interesting detail, although America still does worse than Canada.

I see a temporary leader as being inconsequential to greatness [..]  remarkably sexist actually
Temporary leader? He's our prime minister for a couple of years. Also creating a gender neutral cabinet is not sexist! It's also better than America's.

America also has 35,000 museums
And where did they get those artifacts? From pillaging tribes and cities in historic times! In fact, most likely the more artifacts a museum has, the worse its history was. Just take a look at Britain for example! Britain was arguably the dominant superpower in historic times, and raided all but 22 countries in the world, and look how many artifacts it has!


B) ARGUMENTS

I. Measurement systems

How many inches are in 4.16 feet? Yeah, I don't know either.

3 countries don't use the superior metric system. And in fact, since America actually caused a million dollar satellite to get wasted! If only America followed the metric system...

II. Political and Economic Trends

America is slowing down. Things like Trump, automation, Donald, trade wars, and John.

True, Canada's economy is also slowing down, but at least we don't attack other countries by mail, have dangerous riots, and more!

Our foreign relations are way better, and it shows. Accepting refugees, not making other countries pay for a wall, and having a more diverse population.

This makes Canada feel like a roe accepting country, with a better cultural interaction and diversity, leading to new ideas and world views.


C) CONCLUSION

Remember, the better country is not always the one with the stronger military, or the better economy, it's the one with the better people.Canada has a diverse culture, polite leader, and an overall better society (healthcare, social services).

Con talks about better military, more museums, higher economy, but that doesn't matter. Those are just plain facts. Better social services, healthcare, culture, and society are what really matter. Those are the things that are relatable directly to you, the people, and what Canada excels at. In the final round, I will be talking about the stereotypes between the two countries, and talk about why it matters.

Thank you.
Round 3
Published:
Military

the very first sentence on that link is "America DOES NOT protect Canada

That isn't the first sentence, the first post noted how America is obligated to protect Canada, the second post just goes on about how Canada has helped America militarily in certain occasions, neglecting the fact that the 21st largest military won't be doing as much defending as the largest. Really a thread wasn't the best source choice, here is a better one.

The civilians that died in Pakistan, were probably caught in the cross fire from American fighting terrorist groups

Or they were killed by terrorist groups themselves. The sheer fact that America has the ability to intervene is impressive. If virtuosity is your complaint, it's quite virtuous to protect 67 nations.

our military doesn't get 7% of our GDP. That's how much they spent, not received.

What do you mean. They’re receiving tax dollars, the military isn’t free to spend what it wants, by GDP, America spends 3.1% to protect 67 other nations. Despite many of these defence pacts being mutual, it’s fair to say the largest military will do more defending than the 21st largest.

Economy/Political Trends


Of course America’s growth rate isn’t going to increase dramatically, it is very hard to grow 20.5 trillion dollars by 5% for example, if we look at TOTAL services added to the economy, Canadian growth is flat, America has most recently hit an all time high. Funnily enough, America still trounces Canada for GDP growth rate. Truly showing how insignificant Canada’s economy is.

Automation

This merely proves my point, Canadian jobs are far more at risk to automation than in America.
This once again proves my point, as of 2018, America accepts more than double the refugees.


But 15% of Canadians 55 or over declared bankruptcy for medical reasons. If we just look at the 6 million Canadians Aged 65+(can’t find numbers for 55+), and apply that 15%, we get 900,000 Canadians 65+ going bankrupt for medical reasons. And because there are more 55+ year olds than 65+ year olds, that number for people 55+ will be even higher. So this is a point in favour of America. If you have time, you can tally up the number of Canadians 55+ here, it’s 11,854,125 over 55, 15% of that is way more than ½ of a million.

can't just take car crash deaths away

This was to prove that the American healthcare system is higher quality, and that Canada’s “better” healthcare system wasn’t causing their higher life expectancy.

Neonatal deaths

America still does worse than Canada.

True...by 0.1 per 1000. This was to prove that it’s merely different classifications of infant mortality that lead to these disparities. 

Wouldn’t call this an attack, he just said “don’t be a tough guy, don’t be a fool”, but he was advising the Turkish leader to abstain from being aggressive toward some supposed kurds. Trump said he didn’t want to see thousands of people dead, and how he’d make Turkey pay economically if he did attack these people, which is completely reasonable.


Canada isn’t diverse, 86% of Canada is White European, vs 70% in America, so a ton of homogeneity in Canada.

Happiness 

America's happiness was not done in an official way

How? It was performed on a massive scale, so the data is certainly proficient. Agree?

where did they get those artifacts? From pillaging tribes and cities in historic times! 

Both America and Canada have stolen artifacts and both are returning them in massive numbers. American heritage is still superior.

My opponent dropped much of my case. I'd implore a vote in my favour.

Good debate.


Published:
Hello Trent and thanks for this wonderful debate. Regardless of the outcome, I had fun here. Let's begin with a short little text...


Clash

This will be like a summary. I'll be going over most of the points discussed in this debate, and refining them.

  • Con states that America has a superior military
    • This is of mixed value
      • America has the strongest military, but,
      • They have killed many civilians
  • Con states that America has a better economy
    • America does have more money, but, 
    • Canada's people actually get more out of it
      • A big example is Canada's better healthcare
  • Con states that America is more innovated
  • Con states that America has more natural resources
    • Keep in mind that natural resources is something you can't change
    • Also, why does that make a nation better?
  • Con states that America has more tourism
  • Con states that America has a better media
  • Con states that America has the best soft power
    • Keep in mind that Con has not stated any evidence backing up this claim
  • Con states that America produces the most food
    • Keep in mind that Canada has almost the identical agricultural growth as the States
    • Also, Canada excels at growing other products
      • Certain types of wheat, oats, pulses, canola, and of course maple
  • Con states that America is more happy than Canada
  • Con states that America has a better healthcare system
    • However, I would disagree on this
End.

Also keep in mind that some on Con's points didn't matter at all. Why does having more natural resources make a country better? Con has not yet explained this.

Stereotypes (arguably the most common)

Keep these in mind for my next point.

Canada:
America:

Well, with all this being said,

What actually does make Canada the better than the States? And why it matters to you, and everyone else

Like stated an proven numerous times before, Canada has a better healthcare, population happiness, and a better leader. All these factors contribute to the society's benefit. This impacts you because, well, you're part of the society, and having better access to healthcare, a more reliable leader, and a overall happier environment, and significantly boost your standards too!

We also measure things in exponents of 10, which makes things so much easier! Still don't believe me? Then how many inches are in 4.16 feet?

I also want to elaborate on leader. A leader of a country (prime minister or president) can have huge impacts on the country itself (society), and other countries as well (take a look at the list above to roughly see what other countries see). Trump compared with Trudeau? No explanation needed.

Well, that concludes this debate. I hope that you've outweighed my text over my opponents. Nonetheless, thank you Trent for this wonderful debate, and I hope to see you soon.

Thank you.
Added:
--> @Alec
They can use wind if they have wind. But, having your country's power supply nearly entirely dependent on whether or not the day is windy is not really a good plan.
#28
Added:
--> @bmdrocks21
Canada isin't a good place for solar, but why can't they use wind? I wouldn't force people to use it, but wind seems viable for a place like Canada.
#27
Added:
--> @Trent0405
Good debate to you too. I had fun. I'll catch you in our other debate!
Contender
#26
Added:
--> @DynamicSquid
Good debate my 10 legged friend.
Instigator
#25
Added:
--> @bmdrocks21
"you guys just don't get much sun as far as I know"
Your correct ------- https://www.currentresults.com/Weather-Extremes/sunniest-places-countries-world.php
"You all would have to import a ton of energy."
Yeah, currently renewable energy sources are very inefficient(especially solar).
Instigator
#24
Added:
--> @Trent0405
Yeah, we do need to improve those. However, you guys just don't get much sun as far as I know. You all would have to import a ton of energy.
#23
Added:
--> @bmdrocks21
That would be a problem, although I guess we could improve wind and solar via innovation.
Instigator
#22
Added:
--> @Trent0405
So, how exactly do these climate change fellas expect your country to survive without fossil fuels? Solar panels and wind turbines likely won't work well in Canada.
#21
Added:
--> @DynamicSquid
TYPO-
I Said-----------"86% of Canada is White European, vs 70% in America"
I meant 60%.
Instigator
#20
Added:
--> @bmdrocks21
Here is a chart showing oil prices over time, dropped hard in late 2014. This also caused Russia and Brazil's recessions in 2014. https://www.macrotrends.net/1369/crude-oil-price-history-chart
Our economy still hasn't returned to it's pre recession size.
https://www.macleans.ca/economy/economicanalysis/how-canadas-economy-went-from-boom-to-recession-so-fast/
Instigator
#19
Added:
--> @Trent0405
Ah, thought that was just a silly jab at your boy Justin.
Didn't know you had a recession and that your economy was linked strongly to oil prices.
#18
Added:
--> @bmdrocks21
Things certainly have gotten shaky under Trudeau. I doubt he's the reason for the our recent problems. 2014, 2015, and 2016 were horrible years because of plummeting oil prices, causing a recession. Trudeau had little to do with it I'd say. He ain't helping though.
Instigator
#17
Added:
--> @Trent0405
What, before Trudeau? LMAO
#16
Added:
Canada has a higher land mass.
#15
Added:
--> @bmdrocks21
When was Canada great?
Well we still are great, but we were better in the early 2010's.
Instigator
#14
#2
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
I’m having some internet trouble tonight, preventing sources from loading. Thus not only is the source point not in consideration, but I am having to take each of you at your word for content... The clash on this became too much, especially within such a small character limit, so I am unable to make a properly weighted decision.
Below is the start to my analysis. I hope it is able to provide some feedback into the thinking that passes through a voters mind, to then help you do better on future debates.
1. Military
Pro talks about strength, con counters with a normative Kritik (https://tiny.cc/Kritik). Pro mitigates with review of misinterpreted source information... And then no it wasn’t... arg!
2. History
Pro tried to finish his R1 with this, and con leveraged it as bad for the US. Bigger history isn’t always greater history.
3. Econ
Pro’s highlight here ended up being how much better off the poor are. Con tentatively dropped this to try to mitigate within the society point... Pro shows that US citizens have less debt power as a percentage of their earnings.
5. Society
Canadians live longer, and are apparently more happy... Not really concerned with the leadership, as apparently it worked out to get the end metrics we’re looking at. Removing car crashes indeed doesn’t make sense, as something about US society results in more of them.
---
Arguments:
See above review of key points.
Sources:
(see top paragraph)
Conduct:
This would not be enough to tip the point, but pro, I suggest either having less contentions in R1, or a higher character limit. As an example of how to do this, agriculture's benefit is already included under economy, making it a touch of a Gish point.
#1
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
The voting standard in the debate is "The participant who scores the most points is declared the winner." I will use A to refer to America and C to Canada. I will say they are talking about "their country" for convenience.
Military: Pro says that A's military is more powerful and is used to protect 67 countries. Con protests that the military has killed 200,000 civilians. Pro responds that the numbers are exaggerated.
Pro
Economy: Pro cites statistics showing how A's economy is stronger. Con responds that Americans get less out of their economy and brings up healthcare as an example. However, one example is not sufficient to establish a generalized claim.
Pro
Innovation: Pro cites statistics showing how A is more innovative. Con replies that innovation can lead to job loss. Pro does not have a chance to respond.
Tie
Natural Resources: Pro shows how A has more natural resources than C. Con responds that that doesn't make a country better and can't be changed.
Tie
Tourism: Pro says that A has more tourism than C. Con replies that A is generally agreed to be a poor place for tourism.
Con
Media: Pro points out that A has a larger and better media than C. Con says that isn't necessarily a good thing because the media can promote hate. However, that would be true of both C and A.
Pro
Happiness: Both provide sources saying one country is happier than the other.
Tie
Soft Power: Pro says A has more soft power. Con says Pro provided no evidence. However, Pro did provide a source in R1.
Pro
Agriculture: Pro says that A produces the most Ag products in the world. Con points out that A and C are almost identical in Ag.
Tie
History: Both sides provide examples of how their country's history is good and the other's is not.
Tie
World leaders: Pro says that a temporary leader is bad but doesn't explain why. Con says Trump is bad but doesn't explain why.
Tie
Healthcare: Con states that A healthcare is more expensive and causes 500,000 bankruptcies annually. Pro replies that C actually has more bankruptcies and A has better health outcomes and shorter waiting times. Con says that C has better health outcomes, but drops the bankruptcies and waiting times.
Pro
Museums: Pro says A has more museums. Con says the artifacts in the museums come from conquest. Pro replies that both countries have done that and are returning the artifacts.
Tie
Measurement systems: Con says C uses metric, which is better. Pro drops it.
I think that's all of them. Pro: 5. Con: 1. Tie: 7. Pro wins arguments.
Both sides had good sources, conduct, and S&G.
Excellent debate by both sides.