Instigator / Con
Points: 9

The Bible is Internally Consistent

Finished

The voting period has ended

After 9 votes the winner is ...
Jeff_Goldblum
Debate details
Publication date
Last update
Category
Religion
Time for argument
Two weeks
Voting system
Open voting
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Winner selection
Rating mode
Rated
Characters per argument
5,000
Contender / Pro
Points: 0
Description
"Internally consistent" - In this context, meaning the Bible does not contradict itself.
My opponent will choose their preferred translation of the Bible. This chosen translation will be the sole source for the debate. I ask that after my opponent has accepted the debate, they promptly comment their chosen translation.
Round 1
Published:
Thanks to my opponent for accepting. I look forward to an interesting debate.

I will begin by pointing out our respective burdens. In order to prevail, I need only show a single instance of biblical internal contradiction. To prevail, my opponent must prevent me from doing this. I should also note that my opponent, per the instructions in the debate description, has chosen the Young's Literal Translation of the Bible as our sole source for this debate.

Given this, my opening is quite simple in terms of structure. I will provide several cases where the Bible contradicts itself.

Has anyone seen god?
Yes  - Genesis 32:30 - "And Jacob calleth the name of the place Peniel: for `I have seen God face unto face, and my life is delivered"

No - John 1:18 - "God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father -- he did declare."

Which is it? Did Jacob see god face to face, or has no one ever seen god? See also Exodus 33:11, in which God apparently speaks to Moses face to face, as one would with a friend.

Must we keep holy the Sabbath?
Yes - Exodus 20:8-11 - "Remember the Sabbath-day to sanctify it; six days thou dost labour, and hast done all thy work, and the seventh day [is] a Sabbath to Jehovah thy God; thou dost not do any work, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, thy man-servant, and thy handmaid, and thy cattle, and thy sojourner who is within thy gates, for six days hath Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that [is] in them, and resteth in the seventh day; therefore hath Jehovah blessed the Sabbath-day, and doth sanctify it.

No - Romans 14:5-6 - "One doth judge one day above another, and another doth judge every day [alike]; let each in his own mind be fully assured. He who is regarding the day, to the Lord he doth regard [it], and he who is not regarding the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He who is eating, to the Lord he doth eat, for he doth give thanks to God; and he who is not eating, to the Lord he doth not eat, and doth give thanks to God.

In one case we have a command provided in the context of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20) and in the other we essentially have Romans 14 saying "to each their own." The two are not compatible.

Is incest chill?
No - Deuteronomy 27:22 - "Cursed [is] he who is lying with his sister, daughter of his father, or daughter of his mother, -- and all the people have said, Amen."

Yes, at least sometimes - Genesis 17:15-16 - "And God saith unto Abraham, `Sarai thy wife -- thou dost not call her name Sarai, for Sarah [is] her name; and I have blessed her, and have also given to thee a son from her; and I have blessed her, and she hath become nations -- kings of peoples are from her.'"

In the first passage, it is said those who lay with their relatives are cursed, and no qualifications or exceptions are mentioned. It is a blanket condemnation. In the second passage, god says he blesses Sarah, who is the blood sister of Abraham. It seems god's blessing contradicts Deuteronomy's blanket condemnation.

Do all men sin?
Yes - Romans 3:22-23 - "and the righteousness of God [is] through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference, for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God"

Yes - Ecclesiastes 7:20 - "Because there is not a righteous man on earth that doth good and sinneth not."

No - Job 1:1 - "A man there hath been in the land of Uz -- Job his name -- and that man hath been perfect and upright -- both fearing God, and turning aside from evil."

No - Genesis 6:9 - "Noah [is] a righteous man; perfect he hath been among his generations; with God hath Noah walked habitually."

So which is it? Do all men fall short of the glory of god, or have there been perfectly upright men?

How many stalls did Solomon have for his horses?
40,000 (Kings 4:26)


Readers may find this last point a bit petty, and ask why it matters if the numbers are off by a factor of 10. Others might say the difference of a zero implies a translation error. Both points are irrelevant within the context of this debate. My responsibility is to prove the Bible contradicts itself at least once. The how or why of the contradiction does not matter.

Conclusion
Numerous examples clearly demonstrate the internal inconsistency of the Bible. I have put forth many such examples, and I may put forth more as the debate progresses. My opponent's challenge will be to resolve the apparent contradictions in each and every case.
Forfeited
Round 2
Published:
Extend.
Forfeited
Round 3
Published:
While I cannot control my opponent's actions, I politely request that sylweb not post an argument in his final round. I think it would be unfair of them to drop a rebuttal at the last moment, leaving me unable to respond.
Forfeited
Added:
--> @Jeff_Goldblum
"We believe Christ Jesus and our faith is credited to us, just as Abraham believed God and God's righteousness (in Jesus Christ) was credited to Abraham. Hebrews explains this further:"
Should have been,
"We believe Christ Jesus and our faith is credited to us as righteousness, just as Abraham believed God and God's righteousness (in Jesus Christ) was credited to Abraham. Hebrews explains this further:"
#18
Added:
--> @Jeff_Goldblum
Is incest chill?
No - Deuteronomy 27:22 - "Cursed [is] he who is lying with his sister, daughter of his father, or daughter of his mother, -- and all the people have said, Amen."
Yes, at least sometimes - Genesis 17:15-16 - "And God saith unto Abraham, `Sarai thy wife -- thou dost not call her name Sarai, for Sarah [is] her name; and I have blessed her, and have also given to thee a son from her; and I have blessed her, and she hath become nations -- kings of peoples are from her.'"
In the first passage, it is said those who lay with their relatives are cursed, and no qualifications or exceptions are mentioned. It is a blanket condemnation. In the second passage, god says he blesses Sarah, who is the blood sister of Abraham. It seems god's blessing contradicts Deuteronomy's blanket condemnation.
***
Jesus Christ (the New Covenant) became the curse for those who believe. He redeemed OT people from the curses of Adam and of the Old Testament, as He does us from the curse of death and not having fellowship with God.
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”
Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”—
God made a covenant with Adam. God made a covenant with Noah. God made a covenant with Moses. God made a covenant with Abraham. God makes a covenant with us in Jesus Christ. You have to understand the nature of the covenants. Abraham was before the Mosaic Covenant which is what Deuteronomy largely concerns itself.
In order for humanity to multiply the sons and daughters of Adam would have to mate. I believe the genetic strand was purer closer to the Fall (my opinion, but the reason is not so important, just that there is a reason). In the Adamic Covenant, God gave the command to go forth and multiply. In the Mosaic Covenant, God forbids this incestuous kind of relationship from that time onwards (IMO a reason could be that the genetic pool is now more corrupted). That is just one of the possibilities we can speculate on that explains the difference. Another is the Abraham was counted righteous before God just like the believer is counted righteous before God in the works of another (Jesus Christ). Hebrews said that Abraham was looking forward to in Jesus Christ.
John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Romans 4:16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Galatians 3:6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
We believe Christ Jesus and our faith is credited to us, just as Abraham believed God and God's righteousness (in Jesus Christ) was credited to Abraham. Hebrews explains this further:
Hebrews 11:8-9 (NASB)
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise;
Hebrews 11:13-16
13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been [a]thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not [b]ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.
Galatians 3:8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”
#17
Added:
--> @Jeff_Goldblum
Must we keep holy the Sabbath?
Yes - Exodus 20:8-11 - "Remember the Sabbath-day to sanctify it; six days thou dost labour, and hast done all thy work, and the seventh day [is] a Sabbath to Jehovah thy God; thou dost not do any work, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, thy man-servant, and thy handmaid, and thy cattle, and thy sojourner who is within thy gates, for six days hath Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that [is] in them, and resteth in the seventh day; therefore hath Jehovah blessed the Sabbath-day, and doth sanctify it.
No - Romans 14:5-6 - "One doth judge one day above another, and another doth judge every day [alike]; let each in his own mind be fully assured. He who is regarding the day, to the Lord he doth regard [it], and he who is not regarding the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He who is eating, to the Lord he doth eat, for he doth give thanks to God; and he who is not eating, to the Lord he doth not eat, and doth give thanks to God.
In one case we have a command provided in the context of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20) and in the other we essentially have Romans 14 saying "to each their own." The two are not compatible.
***
The nature of the two covenants is different. In the one, the old, we have a covenant of works. In the other, the new, we have a covenant of grace in which the Son of Man (Jesus) has met the righteous requirements of humanity (for those who believe in Him). He has been obedient to God with all His commands. He has become the new sacrificial lamb, the new offering. His bloodshed initiated the New Covenant. We do not have to do ritualize offerings and sacrifices before God because they have been done in Jesus Christ. His death was acceptable to God, for those who believe.
Matthew 12:8[ Lord of the Sabbath ] For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Mark 2:27-28 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Hebrews 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
That Sabbath rest is found IN Christ Jesus - resting in Him. For the believers, the new people of God, the new Israel, they are said to be IN Christ Jesus.
Romans 3:21-23
Justification by Faith
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith IN Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Apart from the Law of Moses those in Jesus Christ have been reconciled to God through the gift of God, His Son, Jesus Christ. He is our Sabbath rest. We can rest from al our works by relying on His works.
Romans 5:11 And not only this, but we also exult IN God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Romans 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
Romans 6:11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God IN Christ Jesus.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life IN Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:1 [ Deliverance from Bondage ] Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are IN Christ Jesus.
Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith IN Christ Jesus, even we have believed IN Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith IN Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Ephesians 1:1 7 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation IN the knowledge of Him.
Ephesians 2:13 But now IN Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Philippians 3:3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory IN Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
Philippians 4:19 And my God will supply all your needs according to His riches in glory IN Christ Jesus.
2 Timothy 2:1 [ Be Strong ] You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is IN Christ Jesus.
It is by faith IN Jesus Christ, in what He has done, in His grace and mercy, that the New Covenant believer is reconciled to God.
#16
Added:
--> @Jeff_Goldblum
Has anyone seen god?
Yes - Genesis 32:30 - "And Jacob calleth the name of the place Peniel: for `I have seen God face unto face, and my life is delivered"
No - John 1:18 - "God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father -- he did declare."
Which is it? Did Jacob see god face to face, or has no one ever seen god? See also Exodus 33:11, in which God apparently speaks to Moses face to face, as one would with a friend.
***
God as Spirit cannot be seen. You can't see Spirit. Spirit is not physical. God, when stepping into human history in the form of a man (Jesus) or theophany (the angle of the Lord) can be seen. To see the face of the incarnate Jesus is to see what God is like. Jesus said,
John 14:7[ Oneness with the Father ] "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”
In Jesus, the disciples and those who looked upon Him saw what God is like.
John 1:14 (NASB)
The Word Made Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Looking upon the risen Jesus was looking at the glory of God.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.
Matthew 25:31 [ The Judgment ] “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
Mark 8:38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
God never gave His glory to another yet Jesus shares in that glory. Thus, Jesus is equated to God.
Isaiah 40:5 Then the glory of the Lord will be revealed, And all flesh will see it together; For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”
Isaiah 42:8 “I am the Lord, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.
Paradox Definition: The term paradox is from the Greek word paradoxon, which means “contrary to expectations, existing belief, or perceived opinion.” It is a statement that appears to be self-contradictory or silly, but which may include a latent truth.
https://literarydevices.net/paradox/
#15
Added:
Seriously these people appear too much. First join the site, then comment, then FF and feed you the win.
#14
Added:
--> @Jeff_Goldblum
That was easy!
#13
Added:
--> @croweupc
If you had four witnesses of a crime come into a courtroom and every one of their accounts agreed perfectly, you would probably question the veracity of their testimonies. The fact that the four gospel accounts do not agree exactly is a support for the truth of the resurrection. And even though they are not exact, they do not, in essence, contradict themselves.
#12
Added:
I cannot find a way to make all four gospels agree with the resurrection account. They say very different things, and the rebuttals I have found do not address the problem, they only dodge it. I would love to hear or read an account where all four gospels agree.
#11
Added:
--> @Jeff_Goldblum
If your current opponent does a FF I would be interested in swapping places with them and taking on the Pro side. I would ask one favor and that is along with the one translation I would be able to exegete passages using the original languages.
#10
Added:
--> @sylweb, @Jeff_Goldblum
Interesting side note...
I was taking a Hebrew class and the instructor said the closest translation to the original O.T. Hebrew was the Youngs Literal Translation.
#9
Added:
--> @Jeff_Goldblum
My chosen translation is the Young's Literal Translation.
Contender
#8
Added:
--> @sylweb
Per the debate description, please comment your chosen translation.
Instigator
#7
Added:
--> @Jeff_Goldblum
I think your opponent should pick their preferred translation.
#6
Added:
--> @Jeff_Goldblum
I would say either don't limit it to a particular translation or allow your opponent to use the original languages and related sources as well.
#5
Added:
--> @Virtuoso, @SirAnonymous
Thanks for your feedback. Do you recommend I list a different translation? Or perhaps I should allow my opponent to pick a translation?
Or should there be no single translation specified?
Instigator
#4
#9
Criterion Con Tie Pro Points
Winner 1 point
Reason:
FF on the part of pro.
#8
Criterion Con Tie Pro Points
Winner 1 point
Reason:
full forfeittt
#7
Criterion Con Tie Pro Points
Winner 1 point
Reason:
Full Forfeit/
#6
Criterion Con Tie Pro Points
Winner 1 point
Reason:
AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#5
Criterion Con Tie Pro Points
Winner 1 point
Reason:
Fffffffffffffff
#4
Criterion Con Tie Pro Points
Winner 1 point
Reason:
Full Forfeit.
#3
Criterion Con Tie Pro Points
Winner 1 point
Reason:
Pro forfeited the entire debate! That's poor conduct!
#2
Criterion Con Tie Pro Points
Winner 1 point
Reason:
Forfeiture.
#1
Criterion Con Tie Pro Points
Winner 1 point
Reason:
Full Forfeit.