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Discussing (non debate, non vote, no "pro/con" position) what is your view of the scriptures?

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Religion
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Two weeks
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Open voting
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Description
Here we can discuss scriptures, that will be the topic, where it goes from there is up to you! But to start off. What is your opinion of scriptures? Why do you have these views? Etc. If you wish to use sources, do so by all means, i will be using kjv bible.
Round 1
Published:
Ill ask question and then you can answer and ask your own, i speak with mods to make sure votes arent moderated. Debate format will be ignored, we do questions, answers and cross examination.

What is your beliefs? Your exegesis of acts 2. Do you believe in 2 different baptisms? How should they be used? What denomination do you support? Why? Do you believe in trinitarian baptism? Whats your reason to support? Do you believe man is born the enemy of God? Do you believe in praying to saints? Perpetual virginity of mary?  How long have you had the holy ghost? How do you know you have the holy ghost? Do you believe in fatalism? How can you verify that God abides you and his truth abides in you? Who is the rock that jesus refrenced to when he blessed peter? What is the role of women according to scriptures? Do you believe that women shouldnt teach or preach? How many wives is a man to have? What is truth? Do you support T.U.L.I.P? Why? What sort of things should people think on? What does the bible say about science and debating? How would you exegete those scriptures about science and debating? Do you know God intimately? Can God be in turmoil? How? Do the psalms contain prophecy? How do you survive when attacked by doubt? Are you persecuted? Do you preach the gospel? Why? How do you know when a prophet is indeed a prophet? What gifts of the spirit do you operate in? What is your great desire that God gave you? Do you live in peace? Why? Is Jesus God and man? What scripture would you use to prove jesus is both? 


You have a long time limit so dont worry about answering all in one day.
Published:
Beliefs: I have faith in a Godhead consisting of God, the Eternal Father, His Only Begotten Son in the Flesh, Jesus Christ, Savior and Redeemer of the world, and the Holy Ghost. I have faith that every member of humanity is a literal child of God the Father in spirit, and that it is that spirit that imbues the physical body of men and women of life, and is present at conception. I have faith that prior to conception, our spirit lived with God, and His Eternal Wife, that I have both parents in heaven, and that we all lived with them until the time we each were granted a physical body to continue our eternal progression, and that, due to Jesus Christ, we each will resurrect from the dead in perfect, immortal physical bodies such as our Father and Jesus possess. I have faith that the Godhead participated in Creation, and that all humankind are descendent from Adam and Eve. More on the plan God has for us later.
 
Acts 2: This entire chapter is an expounding of understanding the gifts of the Holy Ghost, and their demonstration among the saints following the ascension of Christ into heaven; effectively, the fulfillment of the promise by Jesus that he would send the Comforter [the Holy Ghost] to the host of His Church. On that occasion, the Apostles and the collected disciples [member of the Lord’s Church] were granted a number of the gifts of the spirit, among which are: wisdom, knowledge, faith to be healed, faith to heal, to work miracles, to discern the truth, and to discern the nature of spirits, good and evil, of speaking and interpretation of tongues, etc, all given by God, not all to all persons, but some to one, and others to another, such as needed for their service to others and for personal enlightenment. The chapter concludes with one of the most urgent advice: the express gratitude to God for blessings received. The grateful person will be the more richly blessed, such that we have not the capacity to contain them.
 
Baptism: There is a physical baptism, by full immersion in water for the remission of sins, conducted by one having the priesthood authority to do so, and a spiritual baptism by “fire,” that is, by the gift of the Holy Ghost, also given by those having the authority to give it, and by whose promptings [ie. The Holy Ghost] we are, by our continued obedience, and by our constant desire to repent of wrongdoing, make ourselves available to be comforted, to led in all our paths dedicated to righteousness, and to be granted knowledge and wisdom beyond that enjoyed by people who do not have this gift.
 
These baptisms, first, are holy ordinances, the first of several throughout our mortal lives, which demonstrate our willingness to accept Jesus Christ, and take his name upon us as devoted followers of him, to embrace his gospel, and to offer it to others, never by coercion, but always by desire to make it known, and then leave the choice to each to accept or reject. 
 
Denomination: I am a fourth generation member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and a direct descendant of Brigham Young through my paternal grandmother; his granddaughter. I maintain the association because I have had so many spiritual experiences in many places in the world to demonstrate the truth of my convictions. I was a young missionary in France, and I have experience, business and pleasure, in thirty countries. I testify that Jesus is the Christ, that my origin is in the literal family of God, the Father, that I have a Mother in Heaven, and that they know me, personally, and love me, personally, and desire that I return to their presence in a perfect, immortal physical body as is theirs.
 
Trinitarian baptism: If I understand your meaning, yes, my baptism was performed “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” [by those words, precisely, said by the officiator of my baptism, which happened to be my oldest brother, 16, when I was 8 years of age.]
 
Man the enemy of God? Not by any means by birth. We are not stained by the transgression of Adam and Eve. They are responsible for their own transgressions, and I am responsible for mine. Any man makes him or herself an enemy by rejection of repentance for wrongdoing, and continued resistance of righteous thoughts and actions. The atonement of Jesus Christ absolved Adam and Eve in the very same manner that it redeems me, and everyone else, on condition of repentance for sin. No repentance, however, is meaningful if we only treat the confessional as a revolving door. True repentance is not merely a wish that we do better, but a commitment to do better, to change our hearts such that we shun repeating the same sins over and over and over.
 
Prayer to saints: I see no point in it. I do not regard saints as worthy of my worship. God, the Eternal Father is the personage of my worship, through my Advocate, Jesus Christ. I am God’s child, not issue of any of the “saints.”
 
Perpetual virginity of Mary:  No. She was a wife to Joseph, and likely bore him children following the birth of Jesus.
 
Personal association with the Holy Ghost: Some in my faith believe the Holy Ghost is with them from the time of baptism, and never leaves. While I find no fault in that belief, I don’t believe it is accurate. The Spirit will not abide with people who engage in evil practices; He will depart, though temporarily. We, each of us, decide how temporary. I believe my first encounter with feeling the presence of the Holy Ghost was at 14, when I prayed over a matter too personal, and sacred for me to discuss. But the feeling was so warm and comforting, as a warm blanket wrapped about me, and welling up from within me. It was the most glorious feeling I had ever had to that point, and the concern I had at the time melted away completely, and I knew exactly what my course of action should be, and I followed it. When I had done the thing advised, that tactile experience repeated, and resolved the issue that beset me, and I know it had been a holy encounter with a being I could nether see, hear, or touch in a traditional sense. That I was touched is beyond doubt. I have had that experience many, many times since and recognize it now as feeling the presence, and the blessing of the Holy Ghost.
 
Fatalism: Outside of my personal ability to control thoughts and actions, and consequences, yes, I believe in such a condition, though instead of calling it fatalism, I choose to call it pre-ordained, and that, by God. Concerning me, personally, I am pre-ordained only to the degree that I choose it, but, I have the power to change a paradigm of my making, or to maintain it.
 
God abides [in] me: When I feel the presence of the Holy Ghost, I know I am attended by my Eternal Father. However, just as I learned from my physical father, now dead, but whose presence with me I feel on choice occasions, even when he was living, whenever I thought of his concerns for me, I felt his presence. I feel God’s presence in the same manner.
 
The rock:  Not who, but what. On the occasion of Jesus telling Peter of “the rock,” a careful read of that passage will tell you [Matthew 16: 16 – 18], on the occasion of Jesus asking the apostles, “Whom say ye that I am,” Peter answered: 
 
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
“17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
“18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
 
Carefully note the reply from Jesus, that not flesh and blood revealed, but God revealed what Peter then knew.Revelation. Then Jesus continued, …”Thou art Peter, and upon thisrock, I will build my church.” Don’t be confused by the Greek version of this scripture, which leads one to believe that Peter, Πετρος was the rock. No, read that comment in the context of what was just said: by revelation,Peter was made to understand that Jesus is the Christ, not by anyone else’s word, but by God; the same revelation by which we know it today. And upon thisrock, revelation,was Christ’s church to be built.
 
The role of women: Genesis 1: 28 “…and God said unto them: Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea,”etc. Genesis 2: 24 “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.”In Genesis 2:18, we read of Eve being a “help meet”to Adam, and we erroneously interpret [today] this as a subordinate helper. But the Hebrew, עֵזֶרכְּנֶגְדּוֹ [‘ezer kenegdo] implies a superior, or at least, an equal. A superior? Well, in some ways, yes: which of man and woman is granted the holy role of creation in a nurturing sense, for ¾ of a year before the man ever sees the “fruit” of his participation in being “fruitful.” Which takes a primary role in post-natal nurturing? And which, not to put to fine a point on it, was in God’s embrace for her creation [the redhead to his left, in Michelangelo’s Sistine Chapel ceiling fresco] while creating Adam at arm’s length? These examples tell me the regard God has for a woman’s role.
 
Women teach the gospel: Different times, different customs, and, perhaps [most likely in my book] a misinterpretation, at least, and a mistranslation, at most, of the original Greek text of I Timothy, which we do not have, in any event. However, given the above understanding from Genesis, I suspect that is closer to the intent of the role of women in teaching the Gospel. If she is endowed by the Spirit, let her testify and teach.
 
How many wives: As many as God, and the law, which I contend that God advises we abide by, will allow in varying times and places.
 
Truth: Who’s truth? God’s? Whatever He has revealed. Man’s? Whatever he can prove, and sustain as truth over generations without number, or be inspired to know by revelation from God.
 
T.U.L.I.PTotal depravity. No, I reject the notion of man’s limitation to do nothing for himself related to righteousness.  
Unconditional election. No. I reject the notion of a predetermined count of who earns eternal life by number. 
Limited atonement. No, I reject the notion of any limitation on the atonement. All have access to it. The atonement is infinite, but depends on each person to acknowledge it and seek its effect in their lives. Each is given the agency to accept or reject it. It is even infinite in terms of what it covers; not just sin, but sorrow, disappointment, suffering of all kinds, persecution, shame, any effect that has the effect to turn our hearts from God. In this regard, I believe even Satan and his minions would be covered by the atonement, but they categorically refuse it, just as others do. 
Irresistible grace. No, I reject any notion that grace is forced on any man. It would deny free agency of man. 
Preservation of the Saints.No, I reject the notion that once “saved,” that condition cannot be reversed. I do not believe being “saved” means the same as it does to many Christians. To me, being “saved” means only that I am redeemed from death as a final consequence, but not that I am, therefore “elect.” I do not believe that declaration of faith in Christ is a final judgment that assures I will live with God and Christ forever, and that I have no further need of repentance once I have made that declaration. I believe that once I have made that declaration, I am still subject to temptation, and that I will need the blessing that repentance offers for the balance of my life. Besides, what says I cannot lie about my being “saved” merely by my declaration? No, my commitment to Jesus only begs by a first declaration of my faith in him. I must continue in that commitment, get up when I stumble, repent, and carry on on, until I am found worthy of my commitment to become elect.
 
What should we think on? Think on bringing about the Kingdom of Heaven, first by obtaining a personal, spiritual testimony by the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, and what we must do to further the necessary work to bring ourselves to heaven, then assist others. Along the way, gain as much knowledge as possible about all things, for all things are spiritual, and will aid in an understanding what needs to be done.
 
Bible on science and debating: Is the Bible the only valid source for these subjects, or others? Why limit ourselves to that singular source? As for exegesis on scriptural commentary on any subject, I would, for example, refer one to a debate challenge I currently have open to explore where the Bible, and other published commentary, have intersection of common themes. But I use many sources for such issues that are not the traditional subject matter one would assume the purview of religion.
 
Knowing God intimately: I may, as I might regarding my wife, reply that the subject is beyond your need to know. Be satisfied that He is as familiar to me as is my dead father, who is, perhaps, more familiar to me now than he was as a mortal man.
 
God in turmoil: I perceive that God is in a state of immeasurable joy, not turmoil, for the love He has for His children. He is not, fore example, in turmoil for the suffering of His children. Observe how God described the conditions under which Adam and Eve, and all of their issue, would have to endure hardships of mortal life. But he knows this separation of Him from His children is but for a season, and then conditional on their righteousness, will enjoy His joy forever and ever.
 
Prophecy in the Psalms: Depends on what one considers prophecy. I consider it revelation for my benefit. “The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want.”To me, that is as prophetic as needed to advise how to feel about the Savior.
 
When attacked by doubt: Any attack on what I know to be true is absorbed and reconsidered through the filter of what I know to be true until I reach a point when all I know that is true is all that is in my thoughts. Then, I think forward, reviewing what I know, and measuring it against what I do not yet know, and the attack, and thereby collect wherein I have not knowledge relative to by what words attacks are made. Then, I study, and pray. Sometimes, the edge of the doubt remains; sometimes, the re-thinking, and re-studying, and constant prayer reveal a new understanding of truth, verified by the testimony of the Holy Ghost, through whom, I believe, with the study, desire to know, with faith in Christ, and humble prayer, the truth of all things can ultimately be revealed.
 
Persecution: Yes, at times, and once, at the point of a gun.
 
Preach the Gospel: Yes, because I am a witness that Jesus is the Christ, and that is knowledge needed by all. For example, I am working on the final editing of a book which is an analysis of the Sermon on the Mount as the exposition that every single social ill we suffer today is answered in the Sermon.
 
How to recognize a prophet: By personal revelation from God, through the Holy Ghost, by study, and prayer, and by observing the fruits of a prophet’s thoughts and actions.
 
My gifts of the Spirit: Same answer as above regarding my intimate association with God.
 
Great desire: That I, with my wife and children, be exalted to live in God’s presence eternally. Salvation is a personal achievement, but Exaltation can only be accomplished as a family.
 
Live in peace: I do, because I feel my Savior’s love, intimately. My favorite scripture: “Peace, I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.”– John 14: 27
 
Jesus God and man: I do not draw a distinction. Jesus is a man. What is man? A child of God. What is Jesus? A God; and God’s Son. Follow that sequence, and tell me what is the potential of any man. Any man who will do the will of the Father, live righteously to the end of his days [days extending beyond death, even], and that is his potential. “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”Matthew 5: 48. This scripture is proof enough for me of the nature of Jesus Christ. Do you think Jesus was only kidding? Take him at his word. No, it is not something that is accomplished easily, and requires more than a mortal life to achieve, for all but Jesus, but, the commandment is still there and must be as relevant to him as to us. What’s an eternity for? To play harps? 
 
Questions: for your second round, same to you as to me.

Round 2
Published:

My beliefs:
 I am a oneness apostolic pentecostal, i believe in acts 2:38 salvation, non trinitarian baptism, talking in tongues as the evidence of the holy spirit

Exegesis of acts 2:
This is a fun one! In short my exegesis of acts 2 is revealing of the promised holy spirit and the revealing of the sons of God and the saved.

Belief of 2 baptisms:
 I believe in water baptism and spirit baptism john 3:3-7 galatians 3:7 acts 10:44-48

How baptisms should be used: 
The water baptism should be done in water, fully going under in the name of jesus christ by someone who has repented, been baptised and has faith in Jesus Christ. The spirit baptism is done after a person has repented and they seek God for the holy spirit, when it comes, the evidence is speaking in other tongues. Acts 10:44-48 acts 19:1-6 romans 6:1-5 colossians 2:9-13

Denomination:
I support pentecostalism 

Why i support pentecostalism: 
The evidence of tongues, preaching the gospel, adherance to scripture, baptism in jesus name, demonstration of faith through healing of sick, etc. Operation through gifts of the spirit and evidence of the fruit of the spirit. 1 corinthians 12:7-11 galatians 5:18, 22-25 mark 16:15-18

Do i believe in trinitarian baptism:
No

My reasons for (lack) of support of trinitarian baptism:
Mostly because of how scripture affirms our burial in jesus christ. Romans 6:1-4 colossians 2:9-13

Man is born as an enemy of God:
 Yes, scripture actually points this out. Ephesians 2:1-3. Romans 5:6-11 romans 3:9-19 romans 3:23

Praying to saints:
 Disregarding the view of the dead (how ot saints are in paradise, etc) why would i pray to saints when i have a perfect mediator? 1 timothy 2:5-7

Mary's virginity:
 Scripture affirms she had other children. Psalm 69:7-9 matthew 12:46-48 john 7:3-5. Jude 1:1 etc

How long i have holy ghost:
 Going on 15 years

How i know i have holy ghost:
 Not only through speaking in other tongues, but also development of the fruit of the spirit and operation of the gifts of the spirit. Acts 2:4,38 acts 10:44-48 acts 19:1-6 isaiah 28:10-12 (see 1 corinth 12 and galatians 5 above for gift and fruit of spirit)

Fatalism:
 God has always done whatever pleased him and has overridden mankinds will in a few instances. He wants us to seek and serve him, but he gets glory either way.

Jeremiah 25:27-29 exodus 14:4 daniel 4:31-33 psalm 135:6. Romans 9:14-24

Verifying God and his truth abides in me as the scriptures say: 
John 14:17. 1 john 2:24. 1 john 4:15-17 john 15:7,10-12. I abide in love, i keep the commandments and i love my brother.

The Rock: 
The confession of peter is the rock, that Jesus is the christ. Matthew 16:16-18. His name is called cephas also. John 1:42 1 corinthians 15:5, galatians 2:9.

Role of women in church according to scriptures: They keep silent in churches and should only teach younger women to take care of home. 1 corinthians 14:33-40 ( not a tradition!) 1 timothy 2:7-15 titus 2:3-5

Women teaching or preaching: Teaching and preaching under right circumstances, but not in church. (See above on Role of women)

How many wives we should have: 1. 1 corinthians 7 talks about it. Also. Ephesians 5:28-32. Mark 10:7-9

What is truth? Jesus is truth, holy spirit is spirit of truth. John 14:6

Why i support or deny tulip: i agree with some of it. Not all of it.

total depravity: Yes.(See enemies of God above) John 6:44


unconditional election: (people are foreordained already (see fatalism)


Limited atonement: In that Jesus Christ's blood is enough to forgive every sinner that accepts it? Yes. Not all accept it though as not all are drawn to him. John 1:12


irresistible grace: (in some ways, God extends grace that isnt resistable.)

perseverance of the saints:(Also Fatalism)

What should we think on: philippians 4:8

What the bible says on science and debating: to not let science lead us astray and to be gentle and meek in debates. 1 timothy 6:17-21 proverbs 25:9 2 timothy 2:23-26. Also paul evaluates the knowledge of christ above all. Philippians 3:8

How i would exegete verses on science and debate: See above, i believe we should be gentle and meek, discussing a matter, not having adversity as our method. Also, i believe science is just how mankind percieves the world. Not comparable or to be mixed with scripture. Matthew 15:7-9

Knowing God intimately: i know God intimately, but not in his fulness, he should abide in us and we in him. 1 john 2:3-5 john 15:7

God in turmoil: and how hosea and a couple other places shows a God in turmoil, because his justice and mercy contend with each other. Hosea 11:1-9 jeremiah 13:17

Psalms contain prophecy: i believe psalms contains much prophecy, psalm 22 being a good one regarding christ. And is quoted in new testament 

Surviving doubt: i find that prayer helps, and to remember that God controls all things

Persecution: yes, ive been mocked and threatened so much i lost count.

Preaching the gospel and why: the bible tells me to preach the gospel, everyone should be a preacher or a testifier, not necessarly a pastor, reverend, bishop, or deacon however.
Mark 16:15-16

Verifying a prophet: what they say comes to pass and it doesnt conflict with scripture
Deuteronomy 13:1-3 deuteronomy 18:21-22.    1corinthians14:32

Gifts of the spirit i operate in: i operate in prophecy, wisdom, sometimes faith and knowledge.

My great desire/burden: i want the whole world to intimately know God, wont happen, but i still ask God to reveal himself that people might have peace.

Living in peace and why: the way of peace is the mark of the perfect man. Jesus is the prince of peace. Psalms 37:37 isaiah 9:7

Jesus God and man: this is probably the hardest one, not to prove, but to convience. God was in christ reconciling the world to himself. Jesus means YHWH our salvation. Christ is the man, jesus is the holy spirit, the word, the truth in that man. He was both God and man. 2 corinthians 5:17-22.  John 14:11,16-20. The Holy Spirit was in Christ, the Spirit of God. Christ (kristos) means anointed vessel, one, etc.    I expect this will be a key focus in this discussion.

You may cross examine or discuss your views and/or my views if you wish.


Published:
I want to proceed in this round by discussing those points in which we generally disagree, and ignore, for now, those by which we have at mostly common ground. I believe that will generate more interesting discussion between us. In this process, I do not seek to engage that you are right or wrong relative to any perception of mine; just that we have some disagreement, which is perfectly okay. Consider it a judgment call of how red is red, for example. We know that the likelihood of our perceiving red in exactly the same wavelength is probably not an accurate call, even though we know it could be measured. As for this discussion, measurement is neither a good idea, or productive. As you said, this should be a discussion, not a debate. I suppose in that instance, the voters would chime in with their perception of right and wrong, but who says they are on point, either?
 
Beliefs: Could you help me understand “oneness?” I don’t want to assume I know, because I really don’t. The first concept that comes to mind is a oneness with God; a feeling that we are linked to Him in a spiritual manner, but is that a feeling wrought of merit, such as keeping His commandments, living as He would prefer, but leaving our agency to rebel against them? Or, am I completely off base?
 
If I’m on track, I would agree that our meritorious actions do indeed achieve a oneness with God, through Christ, our mediator. However, I also believe the “merit” is a process of continuous growth in that regard, not a one-time achievement that cannot vary.
 
Baptism: While we disagree on baptism in terms of its recognized divine authority for its practice, we do agree on its necessity. However, as for subsequent gifts of the…
 
Gifts of the Spirit: such as speaking in tongues, as noted in Acts 2, note that while this experience was shared among those who participated in the Pentacost, that is, the descent of the Holy Spirit among them, and they spoke in tongues, I do not believe that is the only gift of the Spirit that can be expressed, as I believe you acknowledge later. I believe gifts of the Spirit are given to help us both augment our own testimony of Christ, but to be of service to others in strengthening theirs. Recall that the gathering in one place involved people from many lands and languages, but that they were all “with one accord;”[i] that is, there for the same purpose and resolve. On that occasion, the manner of both speaking in tongues, and interpreting of tongues was an active gift among them for the purpose of understanding one another “with one accord;” all “[hearing] every man in our own language, wherein we were born.”[ii]  However, other gifts are then discussed, such as the gift of prophecy, seeing “wonders in heaven, and signs in the earth beneath…”[iii] And there are more gifts of the spirit, as offered in I Corinthians,[iv]such as “Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit”and Paul proceeds to describe several. All are beneficial to testify that the Spirit works in us, and anyone else so blessed. And just by witness of one using a gift of the Spirit, another can blessed, and sanctified by that witness.
 
I am moved to relate an experience I had in France, even though I earlier claimed that such experiences are intensely personal. I believe this example will edify: I said in the first round that I was once a young missionary in France, in Provence to be specific, and I encountered a young man of my age who invited me into his home he shared with his mother. She was not home, but he was an adult, and capable of having such discussions without his mother’s blessing; not that it was needed. He was very willing to discuss the subject with me. I am fluent in French, now; I even dream in French at times, though we are now 50 years distant from this event. At the time, I still struggled a bit, even though I had three years of high school French behind me. I could read sufficiently, but putting thoughts together to speak was still difficult. And yet, at one point in our discussion, when the very subject of recognizing the influence of the Holy Ghost came up in discussion, I began to tell him of my experience with this effort, when suddenly, I recognized that I was saying words and phrases that I did not know and understand, yet I understood what I was saying, and the tears in his eyes at that point – and I had already begun to tear up – told he me he understood perfectly what I was saying. I stopped, then told him, “What your are feeling right now is the influence of the Holy Ghost. This is one way he speaks to you to tell you what is truth.” It was a glorious experience, one I rejoiced in be able to share with another. The memory of it causes tears, even 50 years later. You know what I mean.
 
Denomination: Though we do not share denomination, I see no reason to consider this a matter of discussion. We both have faith in Christ.
 
Trinitarian baptism: I think Collosians 2: ought to expand in understanding verses 9-13, because therein is discussed the action of the Godhead, not just Jesus, as in “The fullness of the Godhead bodily,”[v] and “…the operation of God, who hath raised him [Jesus] from the dead,”[vi]and “…hath he quickened[action of the Holy Spirit] together with him…”[vii] All three members of the Godhead have function in baptism, and would appear to be necessarily acknowledged. After all, the point of baptism is not just in similitude of the burial of Christ by going down into the water, but by being then drawn up from the water, in body by coming out of the water again, as one who officiates in the baptism draws us out [we do not do it ourselves] acting in similitude of God drawing Jesus from death to our resurrected Lord. Resurrection is the hope of our coming out of the water, no longer bound by death. If not in specific terms of the Trinity, would you agree with the expanded view of the purpose of baptism, both in going down into the water, and coming up out of it?
 
Man is born an enemy to God:That would be true but for the atonement of Christ, which not only absolves sin, on condition of our acceptance of Christ, and by being obedient to his Gospel, including being repentant as we strive to overcome sin, as an act for the generations to follow Christ. However, it was also an act to absolve those who preceded Christ in mortal life; all those from Adam’s generation to Christ’s, including Adam and Eve. Therefore, by Christ’s atonement, Adam is responsible for his sins, individually, without fear that his stain is upon us, every bit as much as we are responsible for ours, but not shared by our children. Adam is redeemed of his sins on the condition he shares with us: on condition of our acceptance of Christ’s atonement, and all that follows by obedience. The stain of Adam was taken on by Christ, so we don’t share that stain; only our own. Man is born as innocent as we are at baptism. Upon baptism, and thereafter, we are held to account for our own sins if we do not repent of them. “Except a man is born of the water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”[viii] But also, read Romans 12: 1-17, a long passage that describes the necessity of repentance, as if enduring the chastisement of God, of our sins even after we have obtained the grace of God after baptism [it does not mention baptism, but that is when we receive the grace of God, first].
 
The Rock: I think we are in basic agreement that “The confession of Peter is the rock.” Jesus told Peter that his “confession” was by revelation from our Father in heaven, and not by his own realization, and it is not Peter, himself.
 
The role of women: On this, we clearly disagree. Yes, I acknowledge Timothy, but I must contrast that with what I know of women throughout the Holy Bible. Eve, for example, who taught Adam that without partaking of the Tree of Knowledge, they would remain childless. Sarah, who, though aged and childless, worked a miracle with God to conceive, and was Abraham’s right hand in all things. Rachel, who was patient in Jacob’s pursuit of her hand in marriage. Leah, Jacob’s wife by deceit by her father, yet was granted the privilege to be the mother of generations to David, and  Jesus. Rebekah, who trusted the manservant of Isaac to agree to marry Isaac. Jochebed, the faithful mother of Moses. Rahab, a prostitute who served the plan of Joshua to take Jericho, and became for her faith, the ancestral mother of David, and Jesus. Ruth, who taught Boaz of her extreme faith and dedication to what was right. Esther, who, at the peril of her life, sought relief for her people from King Ahasuerus of Persia, won it, and became his queen. Mary, the mother of Jesus, who raised this boy to become the Messiah. Some good teaching there, to be sure. Mary Magdalene, whose loyalty to Jesus earned her the right to be the first to see Jesus, the resurrected Lord, who tasked her with announcing it to the Apostles. Why is Timothy against women teaching? Jealousy that maybe one of them, or more, were better at it than him? Mistranslation? Who knows? I only know there are more examples of exemplary women teaching men than just Timothy being against it.  And, as earlier stated, a woman was God’s last, and I believe, ultimate Genesis creation. Answer that, Timothy!
 
God in turmoil: Until the atonement of Christ, it was not obvious that God’s justice and mercy were reconciled, but if the Jews were careful in their interpretation of the coming of the Messiah, they would not have been in turmoil about justice and mercy. However, God knew that His Son would, one day, be upon the earth to complete the demands of justice, and thereby offer man mercy through the atonement, and so God would not have been in turmoil, either.
 
Preaching the gospel:Agree with all you’ve said, but I’ll include women due to above discussion.



[i]Acts 2: 1


[ii]Acts 2: 8


[iii]Acts 2: 18, 19


[iv]I Corinthians 12: 4 - 11


[v]Collosians 2: 9


[vi]ibid, v.12


[vii]ibid, v.13


[viii]John 3: 5


Round 3
Published:
Belief/oneness Oneness with God is evidenced by God abiding in us through the holy spirit and us abiding in him the same. Jesus told us how to be one with God. John 17:21-25.  Cross reference this with john 14:17. 

However, this isnt exactly the same thing as pentecostal oneness. Oneness in that context is believing God is one, not triune in personhood. The father is the holy ghost. The holy ghost is the son from the father. And the word of God said "a son is given" and the son was given. Matthew 3:16 and john 1:32.

Baptismal authority it is through the name of father son and holy spirit. And that name is Jesus, as in him is the fulness of the Godhead(authority) the father, son and holy spirit are one. Also the book of acts uses jesus name baptism 4 times, even paul using it. Acts 2:38,41 acts 10:48 acts 19:1-6 acts 22:15-17

Tongues, gift vs infilling the gift of the holy spirit isnt the same as the gifts of the spirit. Even in greek in 1 corinthians 12. The word is duderon while gifts OF the spirit is charismata. That aside, the infilling of spirit and speaking in tongues is evidence OF the infilling, not a gift of the spirit.  You need to understand the seperation or we cannot discuss this topic any further. There are passages in acts where people filled with the holy spirit spoke in tongues, this is not the gift of tongues, paul even talks about differences of tongues. 1 corinthians 14 and all of these deal with the gift of tongues (and prophesy) by the holy spirit. Not the infilling.

Baptism and holy spirit, one burying, the other ressurrecting. The repenting kills the old man, the baptism buries him and the holy spirit ressurrects to new life. Romans 6:4. 1 corinthians 15:42-58. 2 corinthians 5:17 romans 6:6-23

Man is enemy of God till they are born again and sanctified. See romans 6:6-10. The old man is the sinner. 1 corinthians 6:11-13

The bible speaks of womens role in the church, not outside of it, concerning teaching etc. Basically the title. Paul wrote to the corinth church and timothy and titus about this. God made the woman for the man, to support and win him to christ by her meekness and godliness. The women have liberty to do all things through God as the men do, however they arent allowed to usurp authority over man. They can preach and prophesy and everything else to the unbeliever, but to fellow believers the woman takes a different role of edifying and subserviance to the body of christ. 1 timothy 2:11-14.  Women are more suceptable to trying to rule men and be decieved by satan.

There is no prejudice on pauls part, there is a recalling of how deception occured and the curse God put on the woman. Genesis 3:16

Mercy and justice not reconcilable. James 2:11-13.  Justice and mercy are in place because of sin. When sin is gone, there will no longer be need of either.

Preaching gospel isnt same as preaching with authority in the church. See above on women. We are all commanded to preach the gospel.

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Round 4
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Round 5
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Added:
You can, however just giving these topics to everyone doesnt apply to my goal, my goal is to sit down and discuss stuff 1 on 1 to whoever wants to discuss it. Its meaningful impact is lost when spread among masses for thinking or talking points UNLESS they do it meaningfully with others. Now if u want to post this discussion in forums, i see no harm.
Instigator
#7
Added:
--> @Melcharaz
As an idea, what do you think of completing this "debate," i.e., continue in it until all rounds are complete, and then, as Ragnar proposed, open the discussion up in Forum, to allow more open commentary. Yes. commentary by others is offered in debate, but, as Ragnar suggests, it is not as open as in Forum. However, because we have engaged so many different subjects, perhaps they ought to be entered in Forum by single subjects, and just open as many Forum topics as needed for each point. What do you think?
Contender
#6
Added:
--> @Melcharaz
Hey, no problem! You're all good. I will be adding my 2nd round later today or tomorrow. I am proceeding only on those points where I perceive a difference of thought. You might disagree both with my commentary, and that which I choose to ignore, only because we could agree, and further discuss to no real purpose. Rather, I want to further discuss where we have some difference of opinion. It is not my purpose to convince one way or another. I think we have better value, and association as brothers, in the further attempt to understand one another. I hope you agree.
One singular exception: the role of women. on that score, we may have some disagreement that will not resolve. I have already finished composition on that matter, but please do not consider it a rebuke. I have, at the end, given Timothy a rebuke, but you do not share in it.
Contender
#5
Added:
I apologize its taking so long, im providing scripture to support the answers to my own questions so that you can cross examine in the next round, should you so choose.
Instigator
#4
Added:
Forum or direct messaging seem like more natural fits for this (and yes, a forum topic could be requested as one on one... other people would probably comment, but you still have that going on here, and a lot less openness for a number of responses).
If both participants consent, this "debate" can be deleted at any time.
#3
Added:
Not a debate, votes dont matter, you came in bad faith. No debates
Instigator
#2
Added:
--> @Melcharaz
I will engage this debate, but I question you motives since the description you offer is to proceed with no debate via pro/con position, and no voting. If not, this discussion does not belong in debate; it's a forum topic. Nevertheless, I will engage in a discussion, and since it is in the debate format, I will treat it as such, ignoring your limitations. I trust it will be voted on, regardless, since it has been made a debate topic. I am sufficiently familiar with the Holy Bible, in English via the KJV, but I have also read it in three other languages, cover to cover. Not to mention that I recognize other holy writ than just the Bible, and will use them as well is a discussion of "scripture."
Contender
#1
No votes yet