Instigator / Pro
4
1470
rating
50
debates
40.0%
won
Topic
#2070

The ELO ranking system is an inadequate method of surveying one's skill level on DArt

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
3
Better sources
2
2
Better legibility
1
1
Better conduct
1
1

After 1 vote and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...

Jeff_Goldblum
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Two days
Max argument characters
10,000
Voting period
One week
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
7
1634
rating
13
debates
80.77%
won
Description

No information

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@3RU7AL

The correlation was shown by arguments presented in the debate. I would also say ELO shows persistence, which could be part of where the error value would stem from if doing a statistical model of it. In almost any system, there will be outliers such as Virt who is great, but lacks the persistence.

You are of course encouraged to share any thoughts on refining the voting standards to have less votes struck down. There is currently a thread for it, which might generate some referendum questions: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4310-what-would-your-ideal-voting-policy-look-like

That said, your proposed judgement system can easily be done with special rules and Judicial Decision (the judges being selected via agreement to just vote however pro and con indicate in the final round; to which I would be happy to assist via being such a judge).

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@3RU7AL

Not with my case though. I have encountered countless veterans and that resulting in me not winning any in the last 2 weeks.

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@Barney

> "If Elo has no correlation with skill," I disliked this line a lot, as that exact correlation had already been shown.

ELO seems to be a good measure of persistence.

Since noob sniping is apparently not penalized and there seems to be a large number of forfeits from people who lose interest, anyone who grinds as many debates as possible and never forfeits will be rewarded for their effort.

Even highly skilled, highly ranked debaters, like Danielle on the old site seemed to overwhelm their opposition with a Gish Gallop of citations and had the favor of the moderators who were empowered to strike down any votes against them for "insufficient RFV".

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@User_2006

Thanks for the mentions.

I was originally very excited to participate in ranked debates, but I quickly learned that no matter how "logical" and "objective" the voting guidelines were believed to be, the actual judges themselves are incapable of acknowledging their own bias blind spot.

I have proposed that all debates be "self-moderated", that is to say that only the two participants in each debate are allowed to vote.

This way, the goal of the debate is to ACTUALLY CONVINCE YOUR DEBATE PARTNER and not simply make them look silly in order to sway an audience.

It seems like such an insanely simple solution to what many consider "a virtually intractable problem".

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@Barney

Thank you for voting.

bump

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@blamonkey
@Barney
@3RU7AL
@oromagi
@Envisage

Hey y'all,

You were all mentioned in this debate, so I'm tagging you in case you're interested in voting.

bump

bump

bump

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@Crocodile

Thank You.

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@User_2006

Here's some feedback. I know you didn't ask for it lol, but I think it will help you.

Try to organize your argument better. Put barriers between your contentions, and between your prelude. Also, put links directly on numbered sources.

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@Jeff_Goldblum

I knew that ELO was the ranking in our profiles, but I thought it was an acronym I didn't know the meaning of. No wonder I didn't know. I detest wiki. Reminds me of encyclopedia salesmen. Yes, there was once such a profession.

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@fauxlaw

ELO is a score attached to all our profiles. It starts out at 1500 and adjusts in responses to our wins, losses, and ties. Under this system, it's a bigger deal to beat someone with a higher score than it is to beat someone with a lower score.

It's derived from Chess rankings and was developed by someone named Elo. There's a whole Wikipedia page devoted to it.

On DART, our rankings on the Leaderboard are determined by ELO score.

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@DebateArt.com

You might be interested.

Sorry. What is ELO as related to ranking?

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@Jeff_Goldblum

Wow, unexpected. Got myself a big opponent here who won both of our debates.

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@User_2006

I was too enthusiastic to wait any longer.

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@User_2006

If you increase to at least one week for argument I *WILL* accept.

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@User_2006

This must be true since I can easily identify many debaters with greater skill than me but lower ELO. ELO measures win/loss relative to ranking but in no way surveys skill.

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@User_2006

If you switch the time for arguments to at least one week, I'd strongly consider taking it.

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@RationalMadman

Thank you :)

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@User_2006

Experience is not the same as skill.