Instigator / Pro

1470

rating

debates

40.0%

won

Topic

#2071

Luigi is better than Mario

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 1 vote and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...

RationalMadman

Tags

Games

Parameters

Publication date: 06.08.2020 02:15AM
Last updated date: 06.21.2020 01:37AM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 2
Time for argument: Two days
Max argument characters: 5,000
Voting period: One week
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

RationalMadman

1706

rating

561

debates

68.09%

won

Description

My last opponent decided to forfeit, and I want someone that is actually good to accept this debate.

Good/Better: Having (more) desirable qualities
Mario: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario
Luigi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi

Free citing of sources. Semantical exploits and deliberate trolling will automatically give the conduct point to the opponent. Forfeiting also does that.

Good Luck!

Round 1

User_2006

06.10.2020 02:05AM

Pro

Oh yeah, very funny. I am green(Pro) representing Luigi. My opponent is red(Con) representing Mario.

Anyways, I will start my first argument.

1. LUIGI is socially smarter than MARIO

Luigi has a much better taste in women than Mario.

Luigi has no Exes whereas Mario has 2(or even 3).

Luigi is definitely into Daisy whereas Mario's horrible taste in women has him ditching a diligent politician(Or at least a normal urban girl who actually LEARNS HER LESSON by governing the city responsibly in the future) and a literal Angel in exchange for a girl who is basically a coward, helpless in front of most evils.

Luigi's girlfriend is more responsible.

Daisy is brave enough to slap bowser. Mario's girlfriend, Peach, can't even dare to lay a finger on Bowser.
Meanwhile, Mario's girl:

She never learns her lesson. Peach, an actual ruler of an actual nation(in that universe), never gave Bowser any major crimes, nor built a more complete social security system. We had the graphics going from janky LEGO blocks to complete 3d Cap Throws, and because Peach never learns anything, we then have to save her every few years.

Not only that, but Luigi was also willing to save Peach if Mario was missing. This act was completely voluntary and he has the bravery to save someone's girl(which, judging from Daisy's personality, she would most likely tolerate this act) when he doesn't have the immediate responsibility to do so.

Luigi can do business better than Mario.

What is Luigi's house? a full mansion that can easily be converted to tour ism. Assets, people, assets. In fact, let's not say tourism. If he can live in such a place, he is already a rich dude, or if he has rich friends.

E Gadd is very helpful to Luigi. Self-explanatory.
Mario copied Luigi's style in Mario Kart 7, only that he used Peach's assets(the castle) instead of getting his own ass up and use his own assets(which he doesn't have). It is temporary. What comes later? I will get to it.

In Mario Kart 8, Mario brought the headquarter of the entire nation on a floating, twisted, and turned Mobius strip. As innovative as it sounds, it puts racing ahead of actual politics. Tell me next time if the white house is lifted above the rest of Washington DC just because someone wanted to drive their new car around it. It is dangerous at least.
Mario's circuits from the SNES era is so boring and monotonous that no one would as well come to all 4 of them.

Luigi's circuits, outside of his own asset, is very simple and within the logic, would take the least wealth away from him. However, he places them usually as the first track in the Grand Prix, so it is a good way to attract people to go on it. In fact, it gets the job done, and all it requires is some boost panels instead of a giant twisted whatever-that-thing-is to do the job.

Luigi throws game parties less(In fact, he doesn't at all). Game parties throughout the years have been hosted by Mario and that drains royal wealth. Mario spends his money more wildly because HE IS NOT USING HIS OWN MONEY. In fact, so much has been wasted that about half of his money on this field went to one-appearance props that will not be seen again.

I know my opponent might try to throw me off by saying Peach is essentially the same as E Gadd, but E Gadd lends technology which can be recreated even if Luigi's vacuum cleaners broke, and Peach lends money which will be wasted.

I rest my case in Round 1. I wish my opponent the best of luck.

Sources:

[1]https://www.mariowiki.com/Luigi%27s_Mansion_(place)

[2]https://www.mariowiki.com/Luigi%27s_Mansion_(GCN)

[3]https://www.mariowiki.com/Luigi%27s_Mansion_(DS)

[4]https://www.consumerismcommentary.com/is-your-home-an-asset-or-liability/

[5]https://www.mariowiki.com/Mario_Circuit_(3DS)

[6]https://www.mariowiki.com/Mario_Circuit_(MK8)

[9]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Party

RationalMadman

06.12.2020 02:03AM

Con

Are we comparing two heroic plumbers or their girlfriends?

During Pro's R1, all I see are reasons to admire the spouse and friends of Luigi (L) more than those of Mario (M). Similarly, we are drawn into a narrative where assets owned by L and ways he's been helped by others are reasons to deem him better than M.

I'd like to begin my case by agreeing that Mario has the needier spouse, that he perhaps isn't as shrewd a businessman as L and that his friends aren't always the best helpers for him. This is because M is the good spouse and friend for them, helpful and reliable to extreme degrees. L does indeed have the better allies to rely on, after all he has Mario.

L is sly, this helps him in business. He has a girlfriend who pulls her weight more and is more dominant in the relationship. In contrast, M strives hard to do right by his love, no matter how needy she is or even L is. There is no example that Pro gives where L isn't the one pulling his weight less and being the worse boyfriend or ally.

Who has the more desirable personality?

I think that we can bring up Wario (W) and Waluigi (WL) here. These are the sinister counterparts that represent exaggerated traits of M and L. While Pro may deny this, there's even naming-basis clues to this on top of developer testimony that I'll bring in R2 if demanded.

This is regarding WL:

His name is a portmanteau of the Japanese words Warui and Ruīji, meaning "bad" and "Luigi."

WL is defined by his purple cap, nasally Italian accent, long handlebar-esque mustache (and other bizarre physical features), rude and trickster personality, rivalry with L, and two signature quotes: "Cheater!" and "WAA!"

https://www.mariowiki.com/Waluigi

The traits that he has most prominently are cunning trickery and rudeness. His quotes imply that he's inclined to blame others. W, on the other hand, is known for being blatantly strong, hot-tempered and greedy (just look at the character to know he's strong):

https://mario.fandom.com/wiki/Wario

https://www.mariowiki.com/Wario

It's important to appreciate W and WL for this debate, as M and L are less obviously contrasted so what is subtle becomes blatant in these counterparts. L is literally defined by his cowardice, even his power of jumping very high suits it:

L's notable traits include his green cap, his smooth mustache, his cowardly personality, his Italian accent, his heavy use of power-ups, and a superior jumping ability to M.

https://www.mariowiki.com/Luigi

Both L and WL have their cowardice in common but what makes L tbe better person than WL is that L doesn't totally give into his tendency to run,a jump and avoid tough situations. W and M both are innately braver, in fact they have to battle their temoer and willingness to engage others, almost the very opposite issue to L. However, what is important to note is that it is specifically the anger issues that separate M from W (okay, and W is stronger while M can jump higher and move faster), whereas it isn't the cunning that separates L from WL, but instead is the tendency to let oneself be the coward that one is wired to be.

I don't really see what I could link to in order to prove that M is inherently more honest and brave ghan Luigi, since this is shown far more consistently by in-game roles and situations than any documents on M himself. What I can say is that Pro has made my case for me by describing Luigi as a shrewd businessman whose girlfriend is braver than him and who basically even owes his business skills to a friend who gives him good advice. Meanwhile, M is so loyal to his needy girlfriend that he risks his life to repeatedly save her.

Who is more skilled and thus a more desirable fighter and 'man'?

Since we defined 'better' as having more desirable qualities and traits, letst discuss something about the fight vs flight nature of M and L.

M takes the enemies head-on. While L can jump higher, M can jump off of walls. It was M who invented the wall jump https://www.mariowiki.com/Wall_Jump and L who copied him later (L cant do it as well as M can though, what L does is jump very high to not need to do it). So, even at the thing L is better at (jumping) M strives to be great at it, inventing moves of his own.

M is overall better at fighting than L but he is also the face of the game. The entire concept of L joining M to save Peach and whoever else, wouldn't be possible without M. Pro mocks M gor saving his needy girlfriend(s) over and over again but what about L saving someone else's girlfriend because L is such a loser that he has no true friend other than M in his life so he has to save M's GF?

L doesn't fight his own battles, the only time he does fight is for a battle that isn't even his own. M is a true man, a warrior at heart. You never pick L over M for a fighting situation, you pick L for jumping ans evasion situation. M handles problems head-on, L tries to avoid them.

Also why does a millionaire mansion owner work as a plumber? I think L has dirty money.

Round 2

User_2006

06.12.2020 03:32AM

Pro

Woah, RM. You really got a little sense of humor going on if it wasn't rushed. Very well.

Anyways, Argument goes here, and here it goes.

Con 1: Mario is braver

Pro 1: Intelligence = Bravery

Con has clearly established his argument of why Mario is the braver one out of the two, and I agree without concession of this subject of debate. Being braver does not mean he/she is better unless the other one being compared spike performance in no fields at all. However, that is far from the case. Luigi is the smarter of the two and my opponent had failed to respond to that point despite given two days of argument time.

Luigi can:

Invest in assets, as illustrated previously
Save money in general, AIP
Be responsible for himself and his relationship, and he actually has a good relationship unlike Mario, AIP

These pieces of evidence point out that Luigi is clearly socially smarter.

Pro 1a: Luigi is a millionaire while Mario is the type of guy that would parties every single Friday

My opponent had addressed the point that Luigi is a millionaire and still work as a plumber. We have no idea that any of them even work as a plumber as they are basically omnipotent. They drive[1], they do sports(I repeat, ALL OF THEM!)[2](The name has Mario in it, which means he is the one draining royal cash doing it), and they do many other kinds of work that would suggest none of them work as a plumber anymore. In fact, in the latest installment in both real life and in-timeline(Which has a pretty linear timeline that correlates to real-life time consider the plot is the same), Mario and Luigi can no longer be seen doing acts as a plumber. Since they are no longer doing relevant work of their proclaimed "occupation", and they haven't been working as a plumber since 1983[3], it is highly questionable to actually categorize Mario and Luigi currently as plumbers.

Since their recent works are equally off-"topic", and Luigi is clearly socially smarter, Luigi still wins.

My opponent had also failed to address how Mario spends his money like a broke bastard. He is clearly the less smart of the two.

Pro 1b: Mario is dumb regardless of how brave he is

Even if courage is more important in the normal sense, Mario would have lost because he is not smart.[4] Brave people, if not smart, will have little to no control over the situation. This can be proven where Mario, with no need to cite, never learns his lesson.

My opponent just clarified my point by saying Mario is hardworking enough to save his girlfriend(which doesn't learn her lesson) every time. If Mario is as smart as Luigi, he would hire a group of royal guards to prevent Bowser from kidnapping Peach. The same plot happens over and over again because Mario never learns his lesson. No matter how brave he is, the result is the same: Peach will, again, be kidnapped by bowser because he is busy racing cars on game parties instead if thinking to himself, "Hmm, where should this money go if I want the nation where I live in thrive? Do I drain royal cash to throw parties, or do I hire several Royal Guards to prevent Peach from going?" Mario works hard and parties hard, Luigi works smart and invests smart.

Pro 1c: Luigi is portrayed as more cowardly because he is more often in shady tasks

Luigi is the only one of the two who actually develop emotions. Luigi's mansion games are usually portrayed more realistically than classic side scroller game. I won't comment about the wiki's authenticity of categorizing Luigi as cowardly because he really isn't: If Luigi is actually a coward, he would never even step into the haunted house and save his brother. If Mario didn't celebrate too early in the haunted house, or if he can fight King Boo, or if he is as skillful as Luigi at operating an everyday device, Luigi will never have to go through all of this. Mario is a part of the problem here. Luigi is at least as brave as Mario, and he is more aware compared to Mario. Luigi won't join Mario if Mario wasn't the careless one.

Con 2: Mario is physically superior

Pro 2: Luigi can do whatever Mario can do

Mario was recorded to do these sick moves first, but that doesn't mean he is stronger. Luigi can do it regardless. My opponent furtherly agrees that Luigi jumps higher, which makes doing these sick moves useless. Again, being in the spotlight doesn't mean it is better. That goes without saying. Plus, Luigi is more skilled at using a vacuum cleaner[5] while it takes mushroom steroids[6] for Mario do thrive through the kingdom.

Conclusion:

Luigi works smarter, not harder
Luigi is probably as brave as Mario, but he is smarter.
Luigi knows how to invest in assets, AIP
Luigi can operate everyday equipment better
Mario never learns his lesson. He is even a part of the problem for some of Luigi's adventures

I wish my opponent good luck on the final round. Because I am almost at the upper limits, I will have sources on the comments and I will mention that it wouldn't violate the rules for sources.

RationalMadman

06.14.2020 01:37AM

Con

Sorry for the typos R1, I typed it on a smartphone, was tired and messed up some words at the end, I apologise.

Optional theme tune for the Round: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj3gU3jACe8

I do think I have won this debate due to Pro having a self-refuting 'mouth eats tail' concept of what makes someone 'better'.

Pro is fundamentally deeming being cunning and lazier as 'better' while M is inferior as he is doing the hard work. Not only does that completely morally make my case for me, it leaves me two different ways to attack it (because M is the leader of the two, not L).

Pro tells you that L is smart since M's always the one in trouble. Why is Luigi at M's beck and call if he's the cunning and shrewd one? L needs M because he has emotional fragility that makes him dependent on him. This isn't criticising Luigi in my eyes, as I am advocating that sensitivity is a decent thing to have to a degree, however Pro makes L out to be a ruthless mastermind and he's actually the follower of M, considering the following:

The entire gaming universe is named after and dedicated to M.
Luigi comes whenever M wants him to, Mario would probably do the same for L but if either is the one working extra hard to make the other's dream come true, Lends up being that person for Mario even though he is at the same time more cowardly and supposedly cunning than M is.
L's entire character, from his dominant girlfriend and brother, to the counterpart WL, is the 'weak one' in all comparisons you can make. He's the epitome of beta male, follower, sidekick.

Pro is telling you that L is smarter than M and that M is basically a 'tool' for L, yet consistently L is the tool and side character for M's agenda. Just because L is richer than M doesn't mean he is better, M gets everything other than wealth and jump-height over his brother.

Oh yeah, about the jumping and tricks, that doesn't actually disprove me at all. What I was saying was that what M lacked by nature vs L (innate jumping height) he not only compensates for but outdoes his brother at. Mario was the first to jump wall-to-wall etc to achieve the end result of what his brother had as a gift. When we talk about 'working smart', M has that significantly more displayed than L. M works smart to defy natural imabalances he has with any enemy (even the massive, scary, agile Bowser). When L approaches life, he takes what he naturally has as an advantage or luck (right friend, right height) and uses it good enough to do well enough in a cowardly way. When M approaches life, he takes it by the balls and never gives up or lets initial setback hold him down.

Emotions and lies

The fact that my opponent says L is the only one who develops emotions is an extreme lie (intentionally done even). How can Pro even fathom this nonsensical idea when it is Pro who blamed M for being too emotional and devoted to his lovers such that he puts himself in harm's way while facing Donkey Kong and Bowser to save them? M is full of emotions, a passionate lover, prone not just to happiness and deep loyalty but also admittedly to anger, which is a huge driving force behind his bravery (he gets angry to counteract how scared he'd otherwise be) and this is more clearly shown in Wario, M's malvolent counterpart.

We defined 'better' as being directly tied to 'desire' for the qualities one possesses. Would you desire the quality of cunning and willingness to see everyone and everything as assets in your friend? Is that even the kind of person that you want to be? Pro portrays L as a cold, calculating psychopath almost, then turns around and tells us that L is the one feeling deeper emotions. In fact, Pro is so proud that L has the better mansion, girlfriend, car etc. Yet what does this say about L himself? The better person doesn't necessarily have the better things, M is a hero, a leader, a pioneer of cool moves and new paths to victory. Yoshi, L, Peach and even L's girlfriend Daisy all admire and listen to M during missions, they adore him.

Pro is wrong about this and the ultimate reason lies in the 'desire' aspect of the definition of 'better'. What do you desire in someone? Ask yourself that and you will know that the debate's resolution is false.

RationalMadman

06.14.2020 08:24PM

#11

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@Barney

I don't entirely agree that Luigi is truly worse than Mario, however I do think it's wrong to call him smarter. Something that I thought as a child about the brothers is that Luigi is the book smart one while Mario is the street smart and neither is genuinely higher in IQ to the other by a significant degree.

Barney

06.14.2020 07:35PM

#10

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@RationalMadman

@User_2006

I wrote a couple ethics papers on Mario, so this debate should be fun to read.

RationalMadman

06.14.2020 07:22PM

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@Barney

Pls vote if you have time.

RationalMadman

06.14.2020 07:21PM

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@User_2006

You lied by the way. Daisy has been helpless at times and Mario helped Luigi to rescue her. I chose to let you run with your false narrative about only Peach being helpless and turned it against you. This is true strategic prowess.

User_2006

06.12.2020 03:34AM

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@RationalMadman

@Barney

Sources for Round 2:
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Kart
[2]https://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/mario-and-sonic-at-the-olympic-games-tokyo-2020-switch/
[3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Bros.
[4]https://www.quora.com/Which-is-better-bravery-or-intelligence
[5]https://www.mariowiki.com/Poltergust_3000
[6]https://www.mariowiki.com/List_of_power-ups

Thank you.

User_2006

06.12.2020 03:21AM

I should have made it 10000 characters...

RationalMadman

06.10.2020 01:48AM

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@User_2006

You have. Just paste what you had on the same debate before and edit it.

User_2006

06.10.2020 01:07AM

"Understood"

Stupid autocorrection

User_2006

06.10.2020 01:06AM

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@RationalMadman

oohh I finally understanding one thing I was doing wrong.

I should have prepared the first round at least, before instigating/accepting any debate.

User_2006

06.08.2020 01:47PM

Looks like RM is here.

User_2006

06.08.2020 01:47PM

...

Barney

06.14.2020 08:18PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Gist:
I enjoyed the comedy, and in grading by either standard con takes the win.

1. smarter: this is a weird one, as L kind of won in the weighting here, but in a way that was flipped to be detrimental to his case.
A. Taste in women:
Pro asserts that L would like to date Daisy who slaps Peach’s boyfriend Bowser, and that M ditches politicians, angels, and normal girls, for princess Peach who is a bad ruler.
Con immediately points out this debate is supposed to be centered on the heroic plumbers, instead of their girlfriends. Con implicitly questions is worth can be measured by such a standard.

B. Business:
L owns a mansion, whereas M crashes at his girlfriend’s palace. M also treats said palace like a mobile home. M throws expensive parties (pro repeatedly brings this up), and L does not.
Con begins building a case of how sly L is in business… He further questions if L’s money might be dirty, given that he claims to the IRS that he works as a “plumber,” but owns a mansion.
Pro continues to cite L’s massive wealth, which is at this point harmed by him claiming to have it all from being the co-owner of a family plumbing business, which was apparently abandomed way back in “1983.”

2. Personality
Con brings up their mirror universe counterparts, to show that L is at his core a cowardly whiner, and M is brave in any form. L gets a little credit here, as pro previously brought up him risking his own live to save Peach whenever Mario is unavailable. Still, Mario’s consistent honesty and drive to do right by his friends shines.

3. Skill: M, by a slight margin
M is an innovator, who invented the wall jump, which L only copied later rather than figuring out a move of his own. This was to surpass L being naturally born gifted at jumping; which is a clear case of working smarter, making that a harmful phrase for pro to use in his final round as the wall jumps were already in evidence.
Pro defends that L knows how to operate a vacuum cleaner, and calls out M for steroid use.

4. Bravery: M
Basically, an extension of personality, but with Mario the first to be selected for any fight and tackling them head on.
Pro concedes this point, before trying to link it back to the first contention of intelligence.

---

Arguments:
See above review of key points.
The big one is I don’t trust where L’s money comes from. I would have liked the debate to dive into that, rather than just saying he has it so he’s better. As is, that leaves the quality of having it less desirable than M who seems to leech off his girlfriend, but at least we know where it comes from (some challenge could have been offered of harm to the working class, but it was not).