Instigator / Pro

Mall

1492

rating

333

debates

40.69%

won

Topic

#2138

It is illogical for a non-theist to judge an Almighty God's works/deeds

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 1 vote and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...

RationalMadman

Tags

Science

Parameters

Publication date: 06.28.2020 12:56PM
Last updated date: 07.29.2020 09:01AM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 4
Time for argument: One week
Max argument characters: 10,000
Voting period: One week
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

RationalMadman

1706

rating

561

debates

68.09%

won

Description

Disclaimer : Regardless of the setup for voting win or lose, The aim of this interaction, Is for those that view it, Learn and or take away anything that will amount to any constructive value ultimately. So that counts as anything that'll cause one to reconsider an idea, Understand a subject better, Help build a greater wealth of knowledge getting closer to truth. When either of us has accomplished that with any individual here, That's who the victor of the debate becomes.

It is illogical because logically, Any person that judges or determines anything must do so from a criteria. That criteria must be proven. . . . . . . . Justified. . . . . . . . . Beyond the shadow of a doubt. . . . Sufficient and correct. The standard upon that which is used to decide things with, Conclude, Measure and declare things with must be definitive in reason.

Moreover being that this criteria is quite truthfully and logically insubstantial, It could never be up to par to make the topic statement false.

For clarity or questions, Please send a message or comment prior to accepting debate.

Round 1

Mall

06.29.2020 10:29AM

Pro

The description of the debate will serve as the first round.

RationalMadman

07.04.2020 11:12PM

Con

So I have thought about this debate from many different angles and basically all of them favour Con because of the following:

To the atheist, God is neither real nor so supreme in status and complexity that the atheist things it can't be regarded as something that the atheist has the right to judge.

I am aware that I say 'atheist' as opposed to Deist, Pagan (some Pagans are non-Theists while others are Theistic and even polytheistic), Agnostic and the variants under those sub-categories of non-Theist but the atheist is the most easy example to explain just how logical it is for the non-theist to judge the God of a Theist's religion. In other words, unless you truly believe in and worship the being, you have every logical reason to judge it.

Round 2

Mall

07.05.2020 01:23PM

Pro

And the logical basis to be able to judge something beyond logic is what ?

RationalMadman

07.05.2020 01:27PM

Con

It is only beyond logic to the one who believes it even exists to begin with. Both Theists and atheists actually believe God isn't beyond logic, Theists just don't realise that they believe God is limited to logic.

If Theists truly thought God was beyond logic, they wouldn't logically conclude that God exists as this requires you to limit God to the logic in your thinking process.

Even if I am totally incorrect on that, it is definitely the case that atheists don't see God as beyond logic whatsoever. They logically conclude God isn't real and other variants of non-Theists don't see God as some over-the-top sacred being such that they can't question or use critical thinking to explore the ideas of what God/s is/are and how she/it/they work.

Round 3

Mall

07.05.2020 03:39PM

Pro

"Both Theists and atheists actually believe God isn't beyond logic, Theists just don't realise that they believe God is limited to logic."

Well atheists of course. That's where this topic derives. But for the theist it doesn't compute any logic entering into it. The Bible speaks of things beyond what logic can explain including God. Now you can make the statement that God is limited to logic and it just wouldn't make sense. It shows you don't know what an ALMIGHTY being is. Now to fix your statement, you can say it is true that theists and anybody else for that matter, contain UNDERSTANDING limited by logic. That's why the rest, you give over to a belief system. Which is what a religion is.

"If Theists truly thought God was beyond logic, they wouldn't logically conclude that God exists as this requires you to limit God to the logic in your thinking process. "

Again it's a religion. Why would logic enter to any conclusion anywhere? It's because these things like miracles, divine revelation and supernatural events that go beyond, extend past logic, you would have to have faith. You surely can't use the scientific method.

"Even if I am totally incorrect on that, it is definitely the case that atheists don't see God as beyond logic whatsoever. They logically conclude God isn't real and other variants of non-Theists don't see God as some over-the-top sacred being such that they can't question or use critical thinking to explore the ideas of what God/s is/are and how she/it/they work."

Well if course, when atheists realize an ALMIGHTY being has an ALMIGHTY knowledge and standard for everything, what possible standard could they use to measure up?

It's not about God being real. You can just go with the premise of the identity to apply a logical response to it. I as a human being cannot apply the same moral standard to an animal(non-person). The intelligence and nature of these things are separate. I cannot apply the same moral standard fit for a human to a non-human. Why? The code of do's and don'ts, rights and wrongs for each are separate as they operate by a separate understanding.

It is a fact, logically so and valid that according to a premise true or not, that an infinite being, designer of all things would have a greater standard than those smaller, with a smaller mind attempting to place a larger mind into.

RationalMadman

07.12.2020 03:28PM

Con

The being is being judged as almighty if you think it's almighty.

to form, give, or have as an opinion, or to decide about something or someone, especially after thinking carefully

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/judge

1: to form an opinion about through careful weighing of evidence and testing of premises
2: to form an estimate or evaluation of

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/judge

it's very simple to understand that even a Theist judges God, they just do it involuntarily and indeed illogically. The non-Theist steps back to genuinely do the weighing of likelihood and validity behind the various theories of God(s) and attributes assigned to it/them as well as acts done by them and moral teachings they give or don't give.

God is logically judged by the non-Theist as God doesn't surpass judgement in the eyes of a truly rational being. It's that simple.

Round 4

Mall

07.15.2020 09:53AM

Pro

"The being is being judged as almighty if you think it's almighty."

What premise are you going by? Certainly not the one for this debate. You have to go by the religious claim and definition. This is why you get off track coming up with your own stuff.

"it's very simple to understand that even a Theist judges God, they just do it involuntarily and indeed illogically. The non-Theist steps back to genuinely do the weighing of likelihood and validity behind the various theories of God(s) and attributes assigned to it/them as well as acts done by them and moral teachings they give or don't give."

So does this mean that a person is able to have a higher standard to judge the works of the being that established ALL standards? All as in ALMIGHTY. IS THAT LOGICAL? IS THAT THE CART BEFORE THE HORSE? The problem once more is, you're not going along with the premise. Sometimes you have to consider these things for the sake of arguing.

"God is logically judged by the non-Theist as God doesn't surpass judgement in the eyes of a truly rational being. It's that simple."

What's your proof for this entire statement?

First off, a person can probably do anything in attempt to use logic. But according to the premise of God, a creator, of all things, including logic, which came first? God or logic? If you say logic, that is your God.

You have to display that you or a person can have as much knowledge as a thing that's an inventor of logic in order to be able to calculate, analyze anything up that high to ad infinitum. Last time I checked, humans do not know all things, understand all things, to be on that level to circumvent that high a criteria . It is however highly rationale to conclude you as a person will not have the criteria to match.

According to the religious belief of God, start with that.

RationalMadman

07.22.2020 09:01AM

Con

Pro is only asking me questionsat this point, ones I have already answered.

RationalMadman

07.29.2020 02:28AM

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@Barney

by the way I did address that in Round 2:
"It is only beyond logic to the one who believes it even exists to begin with. Both Theists and atheists actually believe God isn't beyond logic, Theists just don't realise that they believe God is limited to logic.

If Theists truly thought God was beyond logic, they wouldn't logically conclude that God exists as this requires you to limit God to the logic in your thinking process."

RationalMadman

07.29.2020 02:27AM

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@Barney

I agree with him on that and didn't see a reason to fight him on it. Mainstream religion is for 'herding people' into whatever the rulers saw as conveniently submissive moral codes. Of course, verses can later be twisted to suit less passive agendas but this is why there is inherent problems with religions that stick to strict doctrine.

It's also why a nation such as China and Iran can have a very strict written Constitution but what is that worth when their citizens are treated how they are? On the other hand UK has literally no constitution beyond the Bill of Rights and yet citizens have many rights. This just goes to show the irrelevance of 'scripture based morality'. Of course you can argue that the law is written but the BASIS OF LAW is unwritten and always will be.

Barney

07.27.2020 09:47PM

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@Mall

This was not caught by your opponent, but your resolution is pretty insulting to theists.

If it's illogical for someone to judge the works of God before believing, any belief thereafter is forced to forever remain illogical.

K_Michael

07.05.2020 12:27AM

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@Mall

I judge fictional characters from novels, even though I do not believe that they exist. To the non-theist, God is just a character in a very old novel.

Barney

07.27.2020 09:43PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

BoP failure.

Pro wasted the first two rounds doing nothing, then engages in special pleading that he dislikes that people judge religion. He does assert "miracles, divine revelation and supernatural events" without actually citing any for a non-theist to be illogical when judging.

Con on the other hand, weaponizes structure of belief itself, "It is only beyond logic to the one who believes it even exists to begin with." and "unless you truly believe in and worship the being, you have every logical reason to judge it." Not the strongest case, but with no reason it would be illogical demonstrated, he doesn't have the duty to do more.