Instigator / Pro

USA needs to tighten Gun laws

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Politics
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One week
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Round 1
Published:
US's gun laws have been a reason for debate across the west with the news of US school shooting causing a global concern on the safety of school children, in this debate PRO will try to prove a stricter gun law will help the US populace in several ways. 

BOP 

1.Current Gun deaths:-  Reports suggest that 64% percent of the Gun deaths about (24,000) were suicides rest were homicides. This gives a fair bit of the actual reality of Guns in the US. PRO will not stoop to trying to conclusively say that US school shootings or mass shootings occupy a considerable fraction of Gun deaths in US because they dont. PRO gun lobbyist can often point out that Mass shootings related deaths occupy only a small fraction of the victims killed in the shootings. PRO will try to highlight that justifying a small number of lives are lost for an unknown benefit of gun lobbyists is condemnable. Any loss of human live is not justifiable when the loss could have been prevented by reformative action.US gun laws are very lenient, with ammunition as available as candy. US is by every means a developed country so comparison to any developing country say South Sudan will be unfair. We can compare Gun deaths in US from Gun deaths from developed countries statistics. This leads us to ask the pertinent questions.
Why do mass shootings only happen in the US among all developed countries? 
Why do they keep happening often ?

Compare US gun deaths to that of UK (per 100,000) people :
1.UK deaths :- (0.23) (Homisides-0.06,suicides-0.15)
2.US deaths :- ( 12.21) (Homisides- 4.46,suicides- 7.32)

The only difference was that UK and most recently New Zealand and Canada were quick to amend their Gun laws after Mass  shootings. 

2.Police training and expenses: 115 billion is the amount spend on police training and expenses in US. Most of the training and expenses are justified in the current scenario since the police in US have the most difficult jobs among the developed countries, because gun yielding criminals are also very common curtsy of the current gun laws. The police in other countries are also competent in handling such situations,by designating special wings to deal with such scenarios. Then why train the entire police force to be expert fire-arm wielders when, the need for such training can be simply reduced by reducing the number of Guns and the varieties available to the common populace. With so many jobs lost due to the corona- virus pandemic, it becomes even more pertinent that US cuts its police budget and focus on other sectors such as public housing to accommodate the struggling lower middle class. 

3.Co-relation between Strict gun laws and low Gun related deaths: It can be easily observed that countries with the strictest Gun carrying policies have the lowest Gun related deaths: - 
Numbers indicate Gun deaths per 100,000 people 
South Korea(0.08)
Japan(0.06) 
Hong Kong(0.03)
Singapore(0.025) 

Now compare these deaths to the US statistic 12.1 , the drastic difference speaks for itself. 

PRO makes his case very viable a stricter gun law just like the lines of the UK would reduce police expenditures and reduce gun crime by a substantial rate as seen by the fall in gun crime in UK after the implementation of strict gun law. Thus making the need for Strict Gun law a valid resolution. 
Published:
Thx for the debate

Framework

Due to the nature of the gun control debate, My rounds will be mainly focused on rebuttalling my opponents round beforehand, I will make an argument and then focus on rebuttals. Next, I will define gun control and laws for this debate. My opponent has said:

PRO makes his case very viable a stricter gun law just like the lines of the UK 
This means that this debates gun control reforms is defined on UK laws, therefore we will define terms based off of these laws which can be found here:LINK

Argument

1.Violation of Second Amendment-In order for British gun laws to work, the Second Amendment of the Constitution must be repealed.Where as the British law in 1689 does not guarantee a right to keep and bear arms,the second amendment of the USA does allow it under the second amendment which reads:


A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.{LINK}
in order for guns to be banned similar to the UK, such as banning handguns will be a direct violation of the second amendment of the Constitution of the USA.Until Pro argues for the repeal of the Second Amendment, simply put-these gun laws are impossible to be put in place.

2.USA is a lot different-USA has 120.5 guns per 100 civilians. That is a massive number of guns compared to any other sizable developed country in the world.Combined with a culture built on revolution,democracy, and anti-tyranny, it is easy to see why it wouldnt work. Historical trends show that Americans would resist gun confiscation. New Zealands gun confiscation law saw a compliance of 10%, in America that would leave still 14 million Assault Rifles and AK;s in circulation. The guns would still be there. And due to the difference of gun culture, Americans would be even less compliant to turn in guns  as the NationalReview reports

New Jersey’s recent ban on the possession of ammunition magazines capable of holding more than 10 rounds is instructive. In April, New Jersey State Police told Ammoland.com that not a single magazine had been surrendered to them.{LINK}
Simply put, there are too many guns in circulation for the process to work and the compliance rate of citizens would be low, even if the laws did pass, there would still be guns!

Rebuttal

1.Current Gun Deaths-The UK and USA figure is hard to compare for a couple reasons. First if it can be proved that even before the UK gun law reforms from 1968 onwards that their crime rates was just as low compared to the US than the gun legislation would be proven ineffective.This seems to be the case-while the UK may have lower crime, even before all gun control legislation, UK crime rates in 1919 was 8% of the US rate, after gun control laws, in 1986, it was 9%,gun control laws had no effect on the US VS UK comparison of gun crime.UK has always have lower firearm crime rates.These laws have therefore been ineffective{LINK}

This chart successfully shows the UK VS comparison has always been that lopsided even with gun laws-LINK

Next, CON asserts that Pro's figure is inflated

1.UK deaths :- (0.23) (Homisides-0.06,suicides-0.15)
2.US deaths :- ( 12.21) (Homisides- 4.46,suicides- 7.32)
He is using suicide statistics although previously said he will not use it.Suicides have no effect on guns as Lithuania, who has a suicide rate of 25.7{LINK} also has a low gun ownership rate of 13.6 compared to 120 to America. Zero correlation

Third,violent crime has been up while gun control laws have passed and have gotten more strict in the UK,there has been several jumps in crime since the 1997 gun ban on handguns including one where BBC reports terrible statistics after the gun law:

  • Violent crime up 11% to 812,000 incidents
  • Murders up 4% to 886 and attempted murders up 21% to 858
  • Robbery up 28% to more than 121,000 incidents, including a 31% rise in robbery of personal property.
  • Rapes up 14%
  • Soliciting up 60%{LINK}
  • Last, there is a severe lack of correlations between gun laws, gun ownership and crime rates. Scotland for example has the highest rate of violence in the developed world despite gun laws{LINK}As well as Switzerland where virtually every household owns a gun, the homicide rate is extremely low compared to any other European country with 0.54 compared to UK's 1.20(lax vs strict gun laws).The rape rate of Sweden is 6th in world, which beats out some of the most undeveloped nations, and have been rising.{LINK} Lastly, the white gun ownership rate is 27% compared to 16% of blacks and 11% for hispanics, yet hispanic and black crime and homicide rates in significantly higher than whites, these two charts perfectly show that there is no correlation of gun ownership and crime-LINK and LINK as well as the simple fact that while handgun use is at an all time high, crime rates are not even close to it.

    source link:LINK

    2.Police-This point rests on the case that less guns in the population means that less crime rates and less police expenses. However this has been deemed untrue-LINK and LINK

    Also,as proven in my argument, compliance rates would be severely low in the US meaning there will always be guns around and there will always be criminals around. And even if we got rid of guns, police would still be ineffective in stopping crime as they arrive late(naturally) 95% of the time. They are there to police and arrest.{LINK}

    And even if we were able to get rid of all legal guns which CON has proved would be a near impossible task, firearm smuggling would continue to be the most prevalent factor of gun crime as 5 out of 6 criminals get their guns from illegal sources and the secondary market{LINK}

    3.co-relation between strict gun laws and gun related deaths

    all of pros examples are from east asia, countries where even if guns were completely eliminated would STILL have a murder rate less than the US, this is because the murder rate in Japan is 1, the us murder rate without firearms is 3.2. even if we got rid of all firearms, it would still be lower.{LINK}

    East Asian countries/areas are also highly economically developed and have cultures that are superior to America. Business insider reports that economic equality significantly adds to the lowering of Japans and south koreas crime rate as well as a cultural rejection of violence seen after ww2 not present in USA, it is also important to know that PRO is cherry picking 4 examples, I can just as easily point out low ownership countries and high rates of crime. As well as the 12.1 bloated figure that includes suicides.

    Switzerland has high gun ownership-0.54 rate of homicide.
    Austria has a high rate of gun ownership-0.66 rate of homicide
    Iceland has a high rate of gun ownership-0.30 rate of homicide*Japan is slightly lower at 0.28

    these statistically anomalies can go back and forth but it has been proven that there is NO correlation between gun ownership and gun crime and that PRO cherry picked 4 international examples where has CON has proven in USA, that gun ownership != gun crime rates -LINK and LINK     source link:LINK

    Over to Pro!

    Round 2
    Published:
    PRO will further continue this debate by reaffirming his points and refuting fresh arguments presented by CON 

    1.Current Gun deaths:-  As previously stated PRO has refrained from using suicide deaths and merely stated total figures to show a co-relation between Gun related deaths in UK and USA and to ascertain the fact that in both countries suicide count are closely 60% of the gun deaths, Had PRO any desire to bloat figures , it would have been done by simply stating the 12.1 deaths per 100,000 people. But PRO clearly mentions the real figures :

    1.UK deaths :- (0.23) (Homisides-0.06,suicides-0.15)
    2.US deaths :- ( 12.21) (Homisides- 4.46,suicides- 7.32)

    He is using suicide statistics although previously said he will not use it.Suicides have no effect on guns as Lithuania, who has a suicide rate of 25.7{LINK} also has a low gun ownership rate of 13.6 compared to 120 to America. Zero correlation
    PRO has not used suicide statistic will only focus on the 4.46 deaths per 100,000 people which is a lot, considering other developed countries.

    CON claims that crime rate in the UK has been low forever but fails to mention crime rate and violent crimes need not necessarily translate to loss of lives. What crimes are we talking about monetary embezzlement? tax fraud? theft ? or the more violent- murder? rape? extortion? .  
    Increase of just 1 percent over a span of 1919 to 1986 is actually a decrease as there is a difference between total crime and crime per 100,000 people, CON fails to mention that, so PRO is assuming he is talking about total crime, if that being the case it is favourable for UK since we adjust for growth in population the crime rate decreased substantially. 

    Again all increases mentioned by CON are refuted and these facts are unsourced and CON fails to detail them within given level of detail, is he talking about total crime or crime per 100,000 people. 

    Scotland for example has the highest rate of violence in the developed world despite gun laws
    assaulting somone is a minor crime, a couple of school boys beating a fellow school boy can be charged with assault, assaults have no or minimal relation to guns. 
    Lastly, the white gun ownership rate is 27% compared to 16% of blacks and 11% for hispanics, yet hispanic and black crime and homicide rates in significantly higher than whites, these two charts perfectly show that there is no correlation of gun ownership and crime
    Please refrain from entering communal politics, it is an codemned across democracies around the world. In India such statistics are not even available, shows in US there has been attempt to devide people along communal and racial lines. 

    2. Constitutional claim put forth by CON: 

    A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

    The pretext of the same amendment clearly says -" a well regulated militia", it is by PRO's understanding that USA already has excess of 800,000 reserve personnel, and the again the same argument will be used that the right is not absolute and was upheld by the Supreme Court of USA in 2008. 

     In District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), the Supreme Court affirmed for the first time that the right belongs to individuals, for self-defense in the home,[6][7][8][9] while also including, as dicta, that the right is not unlimited and does not preclude the existence of certain long-standing prohibitions such as those forbidding "the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill" or restrictions on "the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons"

    It is safe to say that it is the characteristic of a mentally ill person to start shooting people from his apartment building in Vegas killing more than 50 people. Stating that the administration failed to act according to the guidelines stated by the Supreme Court of USA. It is to be further concluded that people bearing assault rifles are therefore neither well- regulated nor a militia. 

    Defiance of the Amendment:  CON mis-stated PRO by assuming UK laws as the basis of the debate, while PRO definitively stated that a proposed amendment such as curtailment of carrying of assault rifles can be made " in lines of UK laws" , PRO feels that stating in lines of a law does not equate to the proposed amendment being identical to the laws present in USA. Again stating the same example it would have been impossible to carry out the mass shooting in vegas had the culprit only access to a hand gun. 

    Thus without agruing against 2nd amendment, a resolution can be passed to curtail gun availability in USA. 

    3.US is a lot different argument by CON: The argument is easily refutable, it is one thing to own an assault rifle, it is completely different to own an assault rifle by violating the law and facing criminal proceedings for it. Crime rate can be high in US but it is safe to say majority of the population is law abiding and would not want to serve prison or have an official criminal record of themselves for owning an illegal weapon. Changes are not brought about instantly, a great deal of change can be brought about by effectively taken a huge number of small steps in the right direction. A resolution can start by banning the most deadly category of weapons say: 7.62 or 5.56 calibre guns and then can eventually be extended to other guns.  
     How is US different? are lives lost in mass shooting any different whether it happened it Singapore or New Zealand or USA. 
    A life is life, any loss of innocent life is condemnable when a government fails to protect its citizens, it is sad no matter where is happens on Earth. 


    4.Police: 
    This point rests on the case that less guns in the population means that less crime rates and less police expenses. However this has been deemed untrue
    The source mentioned with the statement is just a graph with no relation to police activity. CON claims police are just there to arrest people and persecute criminals.
    Which is categorically wrong it can be easily demonstrated by  terror attacks: 
    Police dying as first responders to 9/11 attacks in America. 

    The fund spend by America in Police expenditure is more than the defense budget of all countries except China and USA, with the third biggest spender in defense eqipment spends only 70 billion. Compare 70 billion to 110 billion spent by American Police, Police justify their heavy armament by stating Gun available to civilian population and the results compiled by ex-veteran and former police officer for VOX itself states:  
    Note: the facts are published by a research done by Oxford University, and thus can be treated as having no bias. 
    • 94% of police in USA dont have a problem with them carrying military grade equipment. 
    • 77% agree the equipment makes them more aggressive. 
    • 83% stated the euipment and their presence scares them. 

    3.Co-relation between Strict gun laws and low Gun related deaths: 

    Swiss rules are easily avaiable: Gun owernship is high, but the ownership is of a very different kind, mostly pistols and bolt action loading rifles, the type of guns PRO is talking about are already prohibited even in Switzerland. Gun laws are comprehensive. 
    Austria : Same laws, bolt action and handguns with automatic guns only handed to experts, even while handing a gun there is a 3 day background check. 
    Iceland has very strict laws in lines of Japan: 
    Icelandic law places strict limits on gun ownership. To get a gun, you must be at least 20 years old, pass a mental and physical assessment, and you can’t have a criminal record. Applicants must then get recommendations from two people to attend a course on guns, gun safety, and gun and hunting laws. Only after passing a written test can you get a license for smaller shotguns and rifles. To get a permit for larger rifles and semi-automatic shotguns, you must wait an additional year.

    PRO thanks CON for not straying away from the topic and including developing and destabalized countries in comparison. Hope this discussion continues to stay in the lines of apple to another apple comparison. 
     
    Homocide comparison by firearm: (Wikipedia)
    PRO refuses allegation that PRO has cherry picked particular countries: 
    Lets examine a more comprehensive list 
    Guns per 100 people //Deaths( murder) per 100,000 people 
    Belgium - 6.86// 0.14
    Ireland-     7.2//0.21
    Denmark- 9.90//0.11
    Finland-    27.5//0.32
    Canada- 34.70//0.75               
     
    Whenever PRO found a country with high gun ownership and low crime mostly a strict background check and mental health evaluation was involved,(Eg: Germany, Iceland)  since CON supporting background check would intern mean advocating for PRO's resolution- stricter gun laws, the countries stated as examples mostly help PRO's case instead of weakening it. 



    Published:
    Thx

    1.Current Gun Deaths

    Pro has used the suicide statistic to argue for this figure:

    1.UK deaths :- (0.23) (Homisides-0.06,suicides-0.15)
    2.US deaths :- ( 12.21) (Homisides- 4.46,suicides- 7.32)
    perhaps Pro should have left out the suicide figure as he later says in R1

    Now compare these deaths to the US statistic 12.1 , the drastic difference speaks for itself. 
    it is a fact that he used the bloated number of 12.1 to argue for his position even though he promised not too

    Next, I can understand why Pro's confusion about crime rates but it is indeed homicide rates that have consistently been lower than the US's even before the ban on machine guns was introduced!-this chart from my source perfectly analyses the disparity that has always been there between UK and USA. This again, means that gun control legislation in the UK has had negative or neutral effects on the relation compared the USA.-LINK

    Assaults and other nun-gun related violent crimes do have a relationship with guns. For one,Guns stop around 2.5-3 million violent crimes or 6,849 everyday. Another fact to note is that 600k felons admitted they would not attack someone who was armed.Clearly, there is a relationship between law abiding gun owners and stopping of violent crime. Once again, the BBC reports of rise in violent crimes ONLY after the 1997 handgun ban


  • Violent crime up 11% to 812,000 incidents
  • Murders up 4% to 886 and attempted murders up 21% to 858
  • Robbery up 28% to more than 121,000 incidents, including a 31% rise in robbery of personal property.
  • Rapes up 14%
  • Soliciting up 60%{LINK}
  • Pro has dropped these statistics and avoided debating them, claiming that "a couple of school boys beating a fellow school boy can be charged with assault" which is clearly not the case.

    Please refrain from entering communal politics, it is an codemned across democracies around the world. In India such statistics are not even available, shows in US there has been attempt to devide people along communal and racial lines. 
    This is not a rebuttal, it perfectly shows how gun ownership has no correlation with homicide rates.The fact is that black and Hispanic communities are less economically developed, less educated and have a single mother epidemic which is not found in white communities as fathers and brookings states

    As supported by the data below, children from fatherless homes are more likely to be poor, become involved in drug and alcohol abuse, drop out of school, and suffer from health and emotional problems. Boys are more likely to become involved in crime, and girls are more likely to become pregnant as teens.LINK

    Snce 1970, out-of-wedlock birth rates have soared. In 1965, 24 percent of black infants and 3.1 percent of white infants were born to single mothers. By 1990 the rates had risen to 64 percent for black infants, 18 percent for whites.LINK

    These are the main factors of gun violence, not the fact that they exist and you can obtain a gun.It has nothing to do with racial politics either.

    2.Second Amendment

    DC VS Heller ensures protection from UK gun laws. UK gun laws include banning hand guns which is not a "unusual or strange weapon" neither is a semi automatic rifle, and DC vs Heller has firmly stated that the 2A was a individual right you have, while no law In Britain has ever said this, simply put, you must be against the 2A if you want to push the same gun laws in the UK which has banned handguns.

    Next,the phrase "well regulated" was not a phrase describing order in the 18th century but rather a phrase describing something that works,as Gunfacts.info reports

    1709: “If a liberal Education has formed in us well-regulated Appetites and worthy Inclinations.”
    1714: “The practice of all well-regulated courts of justice in the world.”
    1812: “The equation of time … is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial.”
    1848: “A remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Mayor.”
    1862: “It appeared to her well-regulated mind, like a clandestine proceeding.”
    1894: “The newspaper, a never wanting adjunct to every well-regulated American embryo city.”LINK
    It is illegal in the US for felons and the mentally ill to acquire firearms.LINK and LINK, the exceptions in link 2 are either a pardon or after a 10 to 15 year break between release.

    Semi automatic assault rifles are not a strange nor unusual weapon.They have multiple purposes including defending property as seen in the 1992 la riots, koreatown was one of the most affected regions of the riot and the businesses that were protected by assault rifles did not burn down.LINK

    As well as the light weight,durability,accuracy and outdoor use make it a very common choice for Americans to use Assualt Rifles meaning it is NOT a unusual nor strange weapons.

    Pro claims

    PRO makes his case very viable a stricter gun law just like the lines of the UK
    but then turns around and says

    while PRO definitively stated that a proposed amendment such as curtailment of carrying of assault rifles can be made " in lines of UK laws"
    Nowhere in PRO's R1 was assault rifles mentioned,Pro has made a false statement. nor the Las Vegas massacre.Pro is trying to move the goal posts by first saying the USA needs gun laws JUST LIKE the UK but then turns around and says only the ban of Assault Rifles was the supposed "lines like the UK" while not mentioning the ban of handguns,something that America can not perform without the repeal of the 2A.

    3.US is a lot different

    Pro's case is assured that people would just give up their guns to avoid being a criminal.This is has been proven to be untrue by Con. Con's points have also been dropped by PRO has has not addressed the issue of how New Jersey's ban on ammunition magazines saw a 0% compliance rate or how New Zealand saw a a 10% compliance rate.Pro has dropped these points of evidence and blindly states that people would comply while all evidence shows otherwise.

    The US is different with their gun culture and an abnormal amount of firearms in circulation at 120 per 100 people.Guns are and have always been a massive part of USA's culture. It wont go away after a law that millions of americans dont like.There will still be guns and people will not comply.

    4.Police

    While the Police obviously helped with 9/11.In relation to gun crime and crime in general, they arrive late 95% of the time,its just the nature of policing. 

    Next Pro discusses police spending and why its so high but drops my points on why gun control would not lower the costs, there is simply no correlation between what PRO is making a case for and crime rates.This point has been dropped and disguised as "dividing and communal politics" which is not a rebuttal.

    Last he mentions a poll and a video about the militaristic rise in police. He claims that the availability of ar-15's make this possible. However this is not the case. First of all, the militaristic rise of police is due to a rise in crime seen in the 60's and 70's. And as mentioned, only 1.4% of all national crime is committed by assault rifles so the heavy majority of the time, police would not respond to calls about crime committed by AR's.And if we did ban AR's,it would still be in circulation as previously proven.It's one thing to be against the militaristic rise of police forces but there is simply no evidence to show that Assault Rifles would be a factor in the rise.The police also use it for criminals in most situations and it would only be aggressive and make people more scared if it was more public like in a protest/riot.

    5.Co-relation between Strict gun laws and low Gun related deaths

    Switzerland has high gun ownership and has a military grade rifle in virtually every closet due to militiamen keeping it at the end of their service.If criminals want to disobey the law with a military grade weapon, they can! LINK This proves that why virtually everyone has access to a assault rifle and a handgun which is not hard to get, yet the crime rate is still so low.

    Automatic guns arent given to any US citizen yet they can be given to Austrian citizens in category C and they still have lower crime rates.And US code already calls for background checks on gun sales like Austria.It is not an example of gun control no matter how you slice it.LINK

    Iceland does not have strict gun control laws either. Age 20 is a perfectly reasonable age to acquire a gun and a mental and physical assessment is also required in the US.LINK.Tests are common across many states to ensure good guys get guns.This also wouldn't be along the lines of the UK. They do not allow guns used for self defense and ban gun sports, something found all across Europe but the UK.

    Next, the comparison with developed countries and crime rates is apparent but also shows the root cause of gun crime. It isnt the strict laws or gun ownership why these countries are sow high. Its the economic development.Brazil and Mexico both have strict gun lawsLINK and LINK yet see an incredibly higher homicide rate due to the economic factors.This is seen in the USA as well as these two pictures prove-LINK and LINK as well as the economic
    disparity between blacks,Hispanics and whites seen in the US being a bigger factor than gun control and ownership.

    Next, Pro claims he has not cherry picked but goes on to list 5 countries without conclusive data and the are still outliers with Denmark owning more guns than Ireland and Belgium and having a lower murder rate.Pro's countries with high gun ownership has seen the same types of laws the US has seen with mandatory background checks and banning selling guns to the mentally unfit.This does not support PRO's case as seeing that countries like Austria where you can legally buy machine guns have lower crime rates than the UK and other countries with strict gun laws.A comprehensive study, not a cherry pick proves that gun control laws has not worked in other countries.-LINK

    Over to Pro!
    Round 3
    Published:
    I will  begin by refuting CON's arguments in and then publishing fresh arguments 
      
    Firstly homisides have a tangential relation with Gun deaths , i.e, some section of Gun deaths( murder) and homiside cases intersect. But a homiside case need not necessarily translate to use of Gun so the graph furnished by CON is flawed. CON has used the graph that there is no effect or neutral effect of a gun control on crimes, which happens to be untrue. A single act of mass murder reverberates more than numerous singular acts, for example 9/11 attacks are more remembered than the 10000+ murders by guns that take place in the US. That happens to be true for all countries. 
    1. India- 2008 terror attacks 
    2. Israel and Germany -Munich Olymics terror attack
    3. UK - Dunblane massacre 

    I have not dropped the points, the statistics detail a single year in which crime was apparently up, in the UK . It does not entail the possibility of a trend, nor does it take into consideration what were the the crime reports the subsequent year or the year after that. CON has used the statistics of a single year as a trend that is wrong. 

    Actaully asking CON to not use origin or colour of the communities is a decent request, it constitutes ground that CON is indulging in identity politics. Identity politics is wrong because, white, black or hispanic all of them are Americans, there are no seperate laws for them. If a legislature would be passed it would be on every community. 

    CON argument is based on the fatherless children cannot be relied upon, he has not used statistics or statements from Government of USA. Indepedent data collection cannot convince people not willing to participate to reveal their data. Only data released by Government of USA can be relied upon, just talking on an equivalent scale Government of India( my country) does it on a decade to decade basis. If we wants this argument to be taken seriously he should furnish official statistics. 

    The semantics conundrum, I try to be very specific about what I say, but for an initial statement's sake I used UK's gun laws as an example as I happen to know they are quite strict. " US needs to tighten Gun laws" , PRO's side needs to demonstrate the need for a tighter Gun policy, CON wins if he can demonstrate the Gun policy as it stands is good enough. It is a game of chess, PRO does not need to conform to only a particular stand or strategy only needs to demonstrate to voters why there is a need for Gun legislation. 

    If a drug addict were to lessen his consumption from 10 times a week to say 5 times a week, a person says he has shown development in the line of improvement or he has moved in lines of improvement. Whereas we all can easily say 5 times a week is absolutely detrimental to the addict and he is no way near a complete recovery. Similarly if US's Gun laws were to become more strict " in the lines of UK" it does not mean that they have to mirror UK's exact legislature. What is PRO proposing then? If CON states that there will be no compliance in ownership , why not there be a compliance in place of ownership, for instance setting up of a gun ranges where the automatic rifles and semi automatic rifles are permanently stored and guarded at fraction of the police expenditure, any person wanting to use rifles from sport can access his , but after sporting , he or she cannot take the rifles home or any place else , the rifles  have to stay at the gun range, that way the guns are out of public spaces but gun owners still get the ownership. 

    In my country's preamble of the Constitution there is a reference to Abraham Lincoln's gettysburg address" of the people, by the people, for the people" , does not mean my country's constitution mirror's US constitution. 

    What was the way in which New Jersey's proceeded, was it monetary benifit, outlawing guns, or an exchange of guns? CON does not mention it, how is PRO supposed to know what happened when CON has not painted the full picture , if CON brings up a point it is his reponsibility to showcase it with absolute certainity not mine.  


    POLICE
    PRO has not dropped CON's argument regarding lower crime rate would entail lower police cost because graphs furnished by CON have no economic basis, they just showcase gun ownership and have no relevant backing as to why Police spending has skyrocketed while my report which I used clearly states the reasons, 

    Police expenditure started skyrocketing only after in 1997 2 men robbed a bank in Los angeles using automatic rifles and body armour, the Police didn't . After 12 policemen injured in the incident , police from across USA started demanding assault rifles and thus began the expenditure. There is truth in CON's argument that police were armed because of crime in the 60s and 70s but the use of force and as well as the purchase of euipment was limited to drug related seizures, meaning a police person with armoured car and carbines cannot approach civilian protestors. After the incident the same year this protection of a citizen of USA was dropped and the requirement of equipment was lifted, Why? because 2 men robbed a bank with automatic rifles

    The documentary also demonstrates how Police pointed sniper rifles at marching protestors in 2014. All started from a single incident of assault rifle usage and now departments buy weapons like military. 

    Thus the 110 billion dollar police expenditure could have been minimized had assault rifle incident not taken place in 1997. Even if accounting to 1.4% of deaths assualt rifles are reasoned by police as justification for their expenditure. 

    5.Co-relation between Strict gun laws and low Gun related deaths
    Lets assume a swiss can commit a crime , but there has been no recorded instances of a swiss commiting such a mass murder, any person in Switzerland can , lets assume CON's stance, but there have been none, but in the US there have been multiple , the conclusion drawn from the statement is socio-cultural landscape of Switzerland and US are different , whereas there might be no need for gun control in Switzerland but there is certainly a need for Gun legislation in USA. Some countries conform to it some don't. 

    A co-relation is not established by seeing whether or not there is an absolute certainity of that happening, in that case the co-relation is called a perfect co-relation
    For PRO to demonstrate there is a co-relation exists , PRO only needs to demonstrate that majority of people living in stable world having strict gun laws have low gun related deaths.
    CON has submitted a memorandum submitted during parliamentary proceedings, does not take into account who was it submitted to? what was the rebuttal? Report only talks about US  and UK comparison ,whereas we are talking about the co-relation on a global level. Please attach the entire parliamentary proceedings , and what the parliament concluded in that session not just a memorandum. Was it accepted? was it rejected ? CON's case is in disarray. 

    over to CON! 
    Published:
    Thx

    Homicides and other crimes-Pro claims that while guns and other violent crimes have a connection to guns it doesn't mean that guns were used in all violent crime which is true but ignores the fact that violent crime where the criminal doesn't have a gun can be countered better with someone with a firearm.CDC says that up to 2 million violent crimes are stopped by firearms and they are numerous singular events where guns stop violent criminals such as the shooting in White Settlement,Texas-LINK.Next, he brings up terrorism which such as airplanes crashing on the twin towers,bomb killing an olmypic team are both bomb related islamic terrorist accidents and the dunblame massacre is a mass shooting but UK's crime was not effected by gun control as previously stated.

    UK's increasing crime-Pro's claim of it being a singular year trend is false. Mises reports that there was a significant increase in homicides between 1997(the handgun ban) and 2004 where the US has continually declined despite a record number of gun owning Americans.-LINK and LINK.He did drop the point in R2 as it was not mentioned despite PRO claiming otherwise.UK's gun laws have not worked and it was clearly not a singular trend year.

    Race and Violent Crime-Pro thinks that I am playing identity politics but this is clearly a red herring.Con's point was to illustrate how economic and family factors are the main reason between the crime disparities among groups/countries and not the gun ownership.While it is true that the law would affect all Americans, it wouldn't help any Americans as already proven.This is also not Identity politics as It is defined As:

    "a tendency for people of a particular religion, race, social background, etc., to form exclusive political alliances, moving away from traditional broad-based party politics."

    By mentioning that black and Hispanic communities have higher crime rates due to other reasons other than gun ownership as they own less guns per capita than whites is not a measure of identity politics as nothing matches in my definition.Dropped

    Single parent statistics-Pro claims my statistics are not government backed.The statistics from my source come from the study of "An Analysis of Out-of-Wedlock Childbearing in the United States" by George A. Akerlof. First, Pro claims that any non-government statistic would be false which isnt the case at all, other researchers can absolutely analyze facts and produce statistics.First, the journal is provided in The Quarterly Journal of Economics by Oxford University.Oxford University is hailed for extremely precise reporting and contributions to the academic community-LINK.Until it is proven that Oxford University can not be used for a reliable citation,my source absolutely stands.

    Semantics-Pro is once again turning around from what he originally said about UK gun laws. He originally said

    PRO makes his case very viable a stricter gun law just like the lines of the UK
    this is very clear-he is advocating for gun laws just like the lines of the UK but then turns around in R2 and this round to say 


     I happen to know they are quite strict.
    so you argued that gun control must be along the lines of the UK which you have defined, it is not any different from the title as "US needs to tighten Gun laws" as UK gun laws would be tightening gun laws in the US.PRO is now trying to get away from the original promise that it would just like the lines of the UK but has now turned around and claimed that the title is the only thing that matters but the title was defined in R1 by pro.

    In the next paragraph,he discusses a drug analogy that is not relevant to the debate at hand.A drug addict that uses drugs 5 times a week are still a drug addict while better than before.How does this relate to gun laws and the promise of PRO to argue on the lines of UK's gun laws.I agree that it cant exactly mirror the legislation due to the 2A but it has no relation to the analogy nor is it remotely similar. Last, the indian Constitution analogy has no merit because it was a Lincoln speech, not in the constitution despite the Indian constitution being inspired by the US one anyway-LINK

    Compliance-Pro claims that compliance can take over ownership but again, people would not give up ownership of their firearm inside the house no matter what. What evidence is there to conclude or even suggest that this would incentivise gun owners to give up home ownership.Pro also claims that having them stored in a military base or shooting range where owners can pick them up for sporting reasons would be a reliable solution but it would not give 66% of the gun owning population who said their reason to own a gun was protection.Until it can be proven that this would incentivise gun compliance, this argument is without evidence and doenst take into the fact that the majority of gun owners wouldnt want this or comply with it.

    New Jersey's compliance strategy was used by police to turn in the ammunition that was banned-LINK

    Police-Pro's case of automatic rifles bring up the rise of police costs would mean that the banning of Automatic Rifles would thus get rid of the threat of Automatic Rifles.What PRO got wrong was that these guns were already illegal!-LINK. This shows that no matter the fact that these guns were illegal, criminals still got their hands on them and how it takes a good guy with a gun to stop them instead of "gun free zones" or gun laws.This would actually show that this supports CON's case as even if these gun laws were in place,it would not stop a criminal from obtaining it.

    The documentary also talks about public appearance of these rifles and weapons,while responding to a armed robbery would be different.For example, in case of a riot, it has been proved to be effective as Officer Jon Belmar in Ferguson explains:

    Had we not had the ability to protect officers with those vehicles, I am afraid that we would have to engage people with our own gun fire. I really think having the armor gave us the ability not to have pulled one trigger… I think the military uses armor to be able to provide an offensive force, and police departments use trucks like that so they don’t have to.{LINK}

    While they are some downsides to wide spread militarization, the fact that the leading factor to militarization was an already illegal gun should demonstrate that Gun laws do not work in letting criminals not getting their hands on firearms.Until it can be proven that PRO's gun control legislation would somehow get the new illegal weapons out of criminals hands,there is no conclusion that legal firearms brought up the cost of police and the militarization of police.

    Co-relation between Strict gun laws and low Gun related deaths-In regards to Switzerland, this proves that economic and cultural factors have more of an effect than gun laws or gun ownership. As PRO stated that Switzerland doenst need gun control because of other factors and not gun control, why cant we focus on these factors instead of banning guns and getting them out of civilian hands? This means that this confirms CON's point about economic and cultural factors outweighing gun ownership and gun laws.

    Next,While PRO is correct about the study analyzing the angloshpere, this covered all of the US states and UK countries in depth.To focus on the angloshpere only is important as global factors would such as wealth and culture would not be in play.Globally, it is very hard to make a connection with gun laws and the USA and the UK.

    Last, it doesn't matter whether the UK legislation was passed or denied. what matters in this debate are the premises, arguments,facts and sources.The fact is that PRO has not found any correlation between strict gun laws and crime ownership in the angloshpere and even Globally although they have some issues as proven before.

    PRO has also dropped countries like Iceland and Austria

    Over to PRO!
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