Instigator / Pro
28
1485
rating
91
debates
46.15%
won
Topic
#223

The Kalaam Cosmological Argument

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
12
0
Better sources
8
6
Better legibility
4
4
Better conduct
4
2

After 4 votes and with 16 points ahead, the winner is...

David
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
4
Time for argument
Three days
Max argument characters
10,000
Voting period
One month
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
12
1442
rating
22
debates
34.09%
won
Description

--Intro--

This debate allows each debater a maximum of 10,000 characters per round. Each debater has three days, at most, to post their argument for each round. The voting period lasts one month and uses an open voting system. I am "Pro" on the resolution, meaning that whoever accepts is "Con." If special circumstances arise, one may ask their opponent to wait some time before posting their next round.

--Topic--

The Kalaam Cosmological Argument is Sound

-- Definitions --

The Kalaam Cosmological Argument (KCA hereafter) states:

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause
2. The universe began to exist
3. Therefore the universe has a cause

--Rules--

1. No forfeits
2. Citations must be provided in the text of the debate
3. No new arguments in the final speeches
4. Observe good sportsmanship and maintain a civil and decorous atmosphere
5. No trolling
6. No "kritiks" of the topic (challenging assumptions in the resolution)
7. Debaters accept all resolutional terms defined in this description
8. For all undefined resolutional terms, individuals should use commonplace understandings that fit within the logical context of the resolution and this debate
9 The BOP is evenly shared
10. Rebuttals of new points raised in an adversary's immediately preceding speech may be permissible at the judges' discretion even in the final round (debaters may debate their appropriateness)
11. Violation of any of these rules, or of any of the R1 set-up, merits a loss

--Structure--

Rounds:

1. Opening arguments
2. Rebuttals
3. Rebuttals
4. Closing arguments

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

Con never really addresses Pro's arguments. Pro presented the KCA in order to discuss its soundness. Soundness is a well accepted term in logical and philosophy that means a specific thing. Con instead dimissed the use of the term as ambiguous which is not approaching the debate according to the terms and context of the debate.

Cons objections never addressed the specific elements of the KCA. For example: "explain how a god pops into existence and gives rise to order and eventually life" The KCA (as stated) doesn't address god or life, but merely concludes that the universe had a cause. While pro invokes God as a label to the "cause" of KCA, it is actually a red herring with respect to the resolution.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

Arguments: Pro.

Round 1;
Pro lays out his opening argument using ample citations, quotations and logical arguments. Con's rebuttal was to accuse Pro's argument of being "woolly" and engage in a rhetorical argument of if Pro's use of the word "sound" was appropriate. Con provided no sources and attempted to place the burden of proof on Pro by demanding that Pro explain how God came into existence.

Round 2;
Pro responded to Con's demand and cited several sources to support his argument. Con failed to respond, blaming a computer error.

Round 3;
Pro posted no new content. Con resumed his earlier strategy of quibbling over the definition of words by accusing the word "solid" of being just as "woolly" as the word "sound" supposedly was. Con then began to argue about if God exists or not, which wasn't the actual subject of the debate. Con closed his argument by claiming that "because the existence of a god cannot be proven it is sufficiently reasonable to assume that it is more likely that a god doesn't exist."

Final Round 4;
Pro seemed as confused as I was that Con was suddenly arguing the existence of God rather than the actual topic of the debate, and attempted to redirect by pointing out that the actual topic of the debate itself actually is one of the arguments for the existence of God. Pro also pointed out that Con never really challenged the main assumptions of Pro's original argument. Con closed his arguments by ranting about his personal dislike of Occam's Razor while continuing to argue that God doesn't exist without ever addressing the actual subject of the debate.

Summary;
Pro tried to stay on topic and provided legitimate citations to support his argument. Con provided no citations and quickly went off-topic, never really addressing the actual subject of the debate other than to accuse the word "sound" of being too "woolly" for his taste. Con made no real argument to speak of and seemed to be debating an entirely different topic than the actual topic of the debate. It isn't even clear if Con actually understood the topic being debated. This is an obvious win for Pro.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

The direct way to attack the resolution's argument is only to attack Axiom 2. You need to enter a very 'everyone has heavy BoP' scenario where you need to post a ton of reasons to doubt the universe has a cause at all and then you need to further back Pro into a wall as you need to attack conclusion 3 by alternatively posing the 'cycle of determinism' theory in that reality is determine start-to-end and the end was the cause of the start (and if the voters are as highly intelligent and deep thinking as me they'd realise Con is correct, not Pro). The issue is this is risky because I know most voters on this site are... I will just say that they are not me and leave it at that.

Con, buddy, Pro never said God was anything you said. Just because Pro is labelled as a Jew here or because the resolution is usually used with regards to the Abrahamic God variants doesn't entitle you to bring up a new point in the last round about God being omni-everything. This is about a creator, not the all-encompassing moral authority that you are expecting 'God' to be.

Con's entire argument revolves around a need for God to be proven physically and that God isn't omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent at the same time adding to doubt that there is the mentioned God at all. What if we concede that God is only omniscient and is just hyper-powered and extremely multi-faceted with barely any limits bit not completely omnipotent? Why bring this up only in the last Round? Get out of here with that. Conduct to Pro for the laziness and dirty play of Con, arguments too because Pro successfully shoved all BoP onto Con from Round 1 onwards.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

Arguments to pro: pro met his initial burden of proof with his opening round. Unfortunately the debate was whether the KCA is sound, not whether God exists. Con must attack the KCA in his arguments directly to show that the argument is unwarranted but did not do that. Instead, he simply attacked the KCA for lack of evidentiary support for God, which I felt was completely itrrelevany. In this regard, in my view none of cons arguments counted towards the debates contention and thus pro wins arguments.

Sources also go to pro. Much as I hate WLC, and the KCA, the basic principles were well cited by pro which improved the credibility of his argument. Con used no sources at all.

Conduct to pro: I went back and forth several times on this. While I don’t know whether it was done on purpose, I felt that cons argument was both a Kritik in spirit - in that while it isn’t an explicit kritik, it’s effectively challenging the epistemology of the debate premise, which in my view is more than close enough - this was explicitly prohibited in debate rules. The back and forth was due to the behaviour not being a full and explicit kritik: but after some thought, while I wouldn’t go far enough to award a full win (as per rule 11), it’s close enough to waamrrant a violation for conduct.