If you can only save one from a dangerous fire, a famous painting is preferable to a cat
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 1 vote and with the same amount of points on both sides...
- Publication date
- Last updated date
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- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Two days
- Max argument characters
- 5,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Premise: There is a fire in a museum with unknown causes. You MUST save one, a cat, or a famous painting. Whichever you decide, you are guaranteed to succeed, but the other will be completely destroyed/dead. You are unable to stop the fire. There is nothing else at stake, not other paintings, not other cats, not other people, except your own safety.
Famous: Well known, celebrated, renowned, many people visit this regularly
"You": A regular visitor of the museum
Cat: a small domesticated carnivorous mammal with soft fur, a short snout, and retractable claws. It is widely kept as a pet or for catching mice, and many breeds have been developed.
Preferable: The benefits would outweigh the negatives, and the majority of the time you should do this
Unless con can prove a cat has cultural, artistic, and economic value more than the famous painting, he loses the debate.
Con contradicts himself here. Our museum famous paintings is a way to preserve our culture even if we go extinct, perhaps future intelligent beings can discover them, if they re-evolve on earth.
yet, we hunt animals very often. We pollute the air and have little care for other animals. We keep them in zoos and constrict their freedom. There are many contradictions to con's argument.
Compared to a stranger, the dogs become more disturbed when their owners leave, and interact with them more when they return. By contrast, Mills' cat experiments — which are still ongoing and haven't yet been published, but were featured in a BBC special last year—haven't come to the same conclusion.
who is more likely to visit the museum? People who value cats above paintings? Or the other way around?
irrelevant. Cats are not endangered. If this was one of the last 100 cats in the world, perhaps it is worth saving, but otherwise
Inaction is not the same as murder. Con gives in to the slippery slope fallacy and assumes that ONE cat will destroy the ecosystem if you let it die.
if there was a dog in the fire, would he save it?
While the humanity extinct does seem like a bleak argument, keep in mind that while we survive, our heritage still lives on. Leonardo da Vinci is dead, but his future lives on.
Secondly, Con tries to assert again using the pets as a special value we hold
But 1/95.6 million cats is an incredibly small number, smaller than the chance of you struck by lightning, or getting in a car crash. Considering the fact that you can list 100 most expensive or influential paintings as my source gives ,but not 100 most valuable cats, it seems evident that paintings are far far more valued by humans than cats
but we STILL think about putting animals "out of their misery" by killing them even faster, like horses that we send to race. And consider THAT is actively killing them rather than inaction or even saving one of human's great culture values. He has not confirmed that humanitarian values outweigh monetary in the millions, culture impact of incredible nature, and inspirational legacy.
He has not established merely ONE animal burning to ashes causes the entire food chain to collapse. The fire death rate for humans are in the millions, yet the food chain has not been destroyed. This generalization fallacy is simply absurd.
INTERPRETATION:
The resolution doesn't really specify HOW famous this painting is. Through sheer probability, it is probably only mildly famous. This is the deciding factor in the end.
ARGUMENTS:
PRO argues that art has more cultural, historical, economic, and artistic value than a cat. I buy all of this.
CON says that psychology, instincts (don't like this one, instinct tell what we do, not what we SHOULD do), humanitarianism, and science point towards saving the cat. His only real counter to PRO's case is to say that PRO just said what "he'd do" not what "everyone should." I'm not buying this argument, because the entire point of the PRO position is to say what he would do and why that is the best choice. Instead of trying a meh Kritik, CON should've pushed the humanitarian argument harder (while he picked it up by the end, it wasn't as much as it could've been). It was by far his strongest.
PRO turns CON's preservation point. PRO points out that psychology is not a very effective factor in determining our actions. PRO says humanitarianism is irrelevant because cats aren't endangered, which I don't buy at all since that isn't the point of humanitarianism. Instead, PRO should've pointed out how OVERPOPULATED the cat population is. Some sources (PETA) seem to think that depopulating them IS in fact the humanitarian thing to do. PRO pretty much dismantles the ecosystem argument saying that one cat is a negligible difference (it would also help to emphasize here how overpopulated the cat population is.)
CON pretty much just counters that instinct is instinct whether PRO likes it or not. Again, I don't like the instinct argument.
"How many of the world population can afford to visit a museum? According to statistics..." This entire section... Just, no.... This isn't how statistics work in the least.
"What part of "inhumane" does pro not understand? Leaving an animal to die for unreasonable causes is more than pathetic and according to new-humanitarianism that is not humane at all. Pro sounds absolutely irrational as he demands animals to be treated in terms of availability." Good!
" There have been hundreds and thousands of paintings lost or stolen or destroyed over the years and yet we are here enjoying a civilized life and celebrating the remainder artistic creations and having this debate. " GOOD!
VERDICT:
Basically this comes down to which carries more weight:
The cultural, historical, economic, and artistic value of the painting, or humanitarian ethics.
PRO says CON hasn't totally demonstrated that ethics outweigh, and I'm inclined to agree. CON says they used their other arguments to demonstrate that the humanitarian values have merit, but I'm not certain he has been able to demonstrate a substantial amount of merit.
That said, PRO has been using examples such as the Mona Lisa... HUGELY famous paintings that are debatably invaluable. Nothing says the painting in question ISN'T the Mona Lisa, but it PROBABLY isn't so.
So, a mildly famous painting, or a cat? It's really too close to call, as my biases would probably be responsible for choosing the winner here.
The debate is a TIE.
This was difficult to judge... I really don't like handing out ties. I RARELY do. Anyway, good job to both debaters.
Life holds intrinsic value.
A cat is alive and autonomous. A painting isn't.
It's just a clump of cells that can autonomously do stuff. How is a cat more valuable?
It's just a bunch of paint on a canvas. It's like when people value special coins. To me, I don't care how rare a certain quarter is. I don't care how good condition it's in; it's only worth 25 cents to me.
why not?
I don't see the value in art. I'm sorry art fans.
It'd be great with 10000 characters though. I had to cut through a lot.
What has the cat ever done for me?
Con's argument about how art is about how much story is behind it makes it interesting that saving the cat over the painting arguably is more valuable than the painting itself (as there are many copies of the painting). Even though they are not the original; the original's story lives on and the power of animal rights compared to human creativity is brought up, which could inspire a lot of people. It's a little bit of a fallacious argument, but not entirely impossible for con to edge out a win (especially since I'm not Oromagi or Ragnar)
Then I choose the painting. The painting, everyone knows it is valuable. Unless it is Picasso's cat or DiCaprio's cat, it is incomparable.
Just a normal cat. It would only be notable if some person saved it, sacrificing the painting and giving the illusion that the cat was even more important.
An unnotable cat is comparable to a blank canvas.
I remember this.
is this a particularly notable cat?