Instigator / Pro
4
1417
rating
158
debates
32.59%
won
Topic
#2571

The Transgender Idea is Philosophically Contradictory

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
6
Better sources
2
4
Better legibility
1
2
Better conduct
1
2

After 2 votes and with 10 points ahead, the winner is...

Theweakeredge
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
One week
Max argument characters
5,000
Voting period
One month
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
14
1706
rating
33
debates
80.3%
won
Description

I believe THIS was the Debate Juice wanted to have? I will be helping Juice out and challenging the transgender idea.

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@seldiora

To be clear, both arguments had to be dramatically edited, from over 10,000 characters each to under 5,000 by 5 characters that last case.

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@RationalMadman

Don't worry you haven't, though I appreciate the sentiment, I'm tired of responding to the same tired old arguments over and over again. I will continue to do so however.

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@Theweakeredge

I'll reply to that in our debate. I'm sorry if I have aggravated you.

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@seldiora

Incorrect, before one could claim that they would have to show an inherent logical inconsistency within transgenderism. There is not one, as I have already demonstrated and will rebuke the egregious claims of the heritage foundation later.

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@Theweakeredge

I think the main problem with opponents of transgender is that they mistake gender for gender identity and vice versa. They think Transgender people are trying to philosophically conclude whether they are male, female, or a third gender, while in reality it's a belief similar to religion, that should be respected.

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@RationalMadman

Testosterone and Estrogen are responsible for the sex phenotypes, not gender identities.

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@Theweakeredge

other than testosterone and oestrogen, which is the third hormone that creates a third gender variation?

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@seldiora

You clearly have no idea what philosophy is, science is nothing more than applicable philosophy. I used science to prove my premises, not to make the argument itself, you have no idea what you're talking about philosophically. But I will get into the actual argument in the debate rounds.

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@RationalMadman

You are partially correct about gender, but it certainly doesn't demonstrate any kind of dichotomy. So I'd consider that a red herring. As for the other thing, when we are arguing definitions, we use the definition that is the most applicable and the most fitting to the resolution, that's what mine does, the fact that it's by the APA and psychology as a field uses it are just supporting evidence

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@Theweakeredge

I’m surprised you resorted to using science to refute philosophy. That shouldn’t be necessary. I am not saying transgender is wrong, I am saying it has inconsistencies with a belief mindset (as your sources say it can depend on your brain’s birth state, but some think it is fluid... )

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@RationalMadman

Any ad hominems you got from that is strictly your own interpretation of what I said, not actually what I said. I was pointing out the irony of you not understanding a false equivalence considering the rational in your username.

I never claimed your argument was unjustified due to this, that would be an ad hominem and a red herring, I did not. Again, learn logical fallacies correctly. A logical fallacy can be applicable of any premise in an argument, whereas the note to your username was simply that, a note, not a premise.

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@Theweakeredge

It is indeed a complete and utter appeal to authority that you just made and indeed many psychiatrists can lose their job if it's revealed they advised any client/patient that gender is binary, that's the level of peer pressure involved currently. It's alright though, as the idea that gender is inextriably linked to genitalia is also flawed.

The masculinity and femininity of any individual is linked to hormones and brain structure. Even people who believe gender isn't binary often are ignorant and think it's linked to muscle mass and other such things.

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@RationalMadman

Given the definition given by the APA (American Psychological Association), Gender can not be solely binary. You believe me making a false analogy for reasons unjustified, I believe you are making a false analogy because your definition of gender is frankly incorrect, and nearly every gender psychologist disagrees with you. Not to make an appeal to authority, but when arguing definitions, their perspective is important to weigh, and it's fair to say they weigh heavily to support me. I have the preponderance of evidence to support my claims, you do not.

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@Theweakeredge

Insulting the logical integrity of my username is hardly a good attack in this. It's ad hominem and red herring all at once.

I am aware of how my username can appear to be implausible, especially if one doesn't understand enough about how varied and futile the meaning of 'madness' is in the eyes of the norm.

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@Theweakeredge

We both disagree on which of the two of us is making a false equivalence/analogy which is why I accepted your other debate as I want to explain how it isn't transphobic to see genders as binary if you accept that sex isn't the same thing as gender (they are just correlated, not linked in a concrete manner).

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@RationalMadman

False Equivalence, a better or more comparable example would be the color spectrum. Let's call blue maleness and red femaleness, you can have an absence of such, black, or be ever-shifting, white. Temperature implies an inherent dichotomy that is untrue for gender.

Have you ever studied logical fallacies "Rational"Madman?

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@Theweakeredge

Indeed, there is also lukewarm and fairly-hot on the temperature scale but only 2 poles towards which it can be directed.

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@RationalMadman

Actually, to correct you.. No. there is no depth to what this source is saying. It's a collection of messy red herring, strawmen, and non-sequiturs. No one denies gender is there, people correct you that gender is primarily a societal concept. Of course, there is some genetic and neuroscience that backs up gender identity and all of the research that comes with it as a result.

What you misunderstand is that non-binary people exist, as in people who identify with neither gender. You fundamentally misunderstand the concept of being transgender if that is the problem you are being stuck upon. I would ask you further your research instead of trying to come to your own conclusions on it. As they are logically fallacious

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@Theweakeredge

Actually there is a lot of depth to what they say, which I will use in our other debate. As Seldiora says, it's not that someone being transgender is a problem, it's that they deny gender is there to justify needing to turn into the other one.

The source does go too far with the whole 'what is a feeling of gender' thing, since there is a felt gender they're denying but when it comes to the logic on which transgender base their transition, it's flawed if they deny that gender is real.

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@seldiora

So, I'm pulling an all-nighter to get this argument done as fast as possible, I can not stand the abomination that is that block of text you copy and pasted from the heritage foundation. The amount of misinformation and logical fallacies frankly concern me, you should avoid using them as a source of argumentation in the future.

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@seldiora

This.... isn't even their argument.... they just... copy and pasted..... literally.

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@Intelligence_06

Which I guess if you're purely looking to become a better debater is fine, but I just like being intellectually honest. I can be devil's advocate, but it always feels dishonest; because I know an argument that would beat it.

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@Theweakeredge

Well seldiora argues for literally anything and everything.

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@seldiora

You know what? It doesn't matter. You're wrong.

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@seldiora

I'm gonna need your definition for philosophically here, do you have a syllogism that proves this?

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@Theweakeredge

What’s your thought on this? It’s not that it’s bad for society, or science, but rather, on a metaphysical logical realm, it starts to fall apart (similar to a religion)