Instigator / Pro
3
1266
rating
119
debates
15.97%
won
Topic

Rap is the most lyrically advanced form of music

Status
Finished

All stages have been completed. The voting points distribution and the result are presented below.

Arguments points
0
3
Sources points
2
2
Spelling and grammar points
1
1
Conduct points
0
1

With 1 vote and 4 points ahead, the winner is ...

Smithereens
Parameters
More details
Publication date
Last update date
Category
Art
Time for argument
One day
Voting system
Open voting
Voting period
One week
Point system
Four points
Rating mode
Rated
Characters per argument
30,000
Contender / Con
7
1528
rating
2
debates
100.0%
won
Description
~ 0 / 5,000

No information

Added:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHqImCv0VzE

Added:

"I'm sick of the useless pile
of juvenile
rappers, who defile
the game and make people like you misconstrue the style
and just because I use a ruthless style
that's often crude and vile
don't mistake me for the crap that promotes gangs and truth denial
I leave those rappers eatin' through tubes, it's why all
those bitches put in grills to cover their toothless smile
I got a huge supply full
of weapons to contuse a guy's skull
I use the bible
to wipe my ass as I SCUBA dive all
the way to hell, and tell Satan I'll trade a doob for my soul
cause' I smoked up all my weed in the last few ones I rolled
but then I saw my chance to assume my rightful
place as the lord of darkness, and hell started freezing cause' dude, I'm ice cold..."

Usually this guy raps far worse and more insult-heavy and flow-focused but the intellect here and intricacy of rhyme scheme was phenomenal

Added:

Pro not Print*

Added:
Contender
--> @RationalMadman

It's a debate, not a rap tourney.

Added:

Print loses conduct but rapped very well for me this is pro win for now

Added:

I do have to appreciate the innovative presentation style that Pro used in Round 3.

Added:

@Smithereens I'm saying if a rapper is as concise as humanly possible and raps about a concept for thirty seconds, and a conventional singer is as concise as humanly possible and sings about a concept for thirty seconds, the rapper will probably have been able to address that concept in more detail or complexity because he simply got to say more. Any argument that the content or meaning of rap music is superior to any other music is of course absurd.

Added:
Contender

Tbh I honestly don't believe the resolution can be supported in the first place. Aside from me arguing for the sake of argument, I don't believe the wording of this debate actually allows you to make a case. If it were "Lyrics in raps tend to be more complex than any other musical form." You could agree with your opponent on what constitutes complexity or define from R1 and work from there, but this wording doesn't let you do even that.

Added:
Contender
--> @Type1

What I'm doing there is layering the arguments. I don't have an opinion on raps and don't care if they're trash in an objective world or not. For you to support the resolution you need to break out of subjectivity, and I've gone through the effort of showing why even if you did address subjectivity the resolution would still be false. And then I also went through the effort of showing that even if raps weren't trash, there would still be more advanced lyrics out there. You can ignore all of the arguments that come after subjectivity because they aren't relevant until you establish objectivity in advancement. Once you've done that then you're faced with the next argument which I piled on you from the start. It's a box in a box in a box.

Added:
Contender
--> @Castin

The ability to express more with fewer words is conciseness, and imo it's a great ability to be parsimonious with words while still saying everything you want to say. Raps are a musical style btw, I wouldn't criticise raps for using more words than need be because the words themselves are a part of the performance. A rap isn't defined by it's criticism of a government. you could rap about drugs and hoes, drugs and hoes, x20, so quality of information content isn't really relevant to raps and I wouldn't bring it as an argument against their advancement.

Added:
Instigator
--> @Smithereens

You said rap is objectively trash and fail to realise how uniquely lyrical it is. You seem to only care about sound itself and judge it entirely based on that criteria. You either hate rap and don't care about lyricism in and of itself beyond how it sounds, or you are intellectually dishonest and purposely trying to contextualize the debate in such a way that lyrics are irrelevant.

Added:
Contender

Also you suggested in the debate that I hate raps, I don't.

Added:
Contender
--> @Type1

The information content of a single word is arbitrary. Information density is a function of sentences/phrases. Ie "I am feeling emotionally sad," has less information per word than "I'm sad," despite "feeling" and "emotion" being rich words themselves. If you want to bring it up in your round you can, but I'm just going to point out that raps use a heck of a lot of words to make a statement they could make with a fraction of the number of words they use.

Added:
--> @Smithereens

There's still only so much complexity or detail you can express in a short number of words. Not everything can be condensed without something being sacrificed. Not that I don't believe some of the most resonant and powerful messages are expressed with the least amount of words -- I very much do.

Added:
Instigator
--> @Smithereens

It's not how many words are used that matter primarily, but the actual meaning behind them. Therefor more words is superior if each of those words contain significant meaning, as opposed to a small number of words that contain a similar level of meaning. If the words are meaningless in the first place then it doesn't matter how many there are and if the words are meaningful then more is better so long as they aren't redundant.

Added:

Thanks for your opinion.

Added:
Contender
--> @Castin

"Don't say a little with many words, but a great deal with a few" so said pythagoras. Some of the most memorable artworks have used a very small number of words to create beautiful pieces. I would say that fewer words and thus greater information density per word is the value of advancement. Otherwise if it's just blunt quantity of information you're after, longer songs beat shorter ones.

Added:
Contender
--> @RationalMadman

Being a "rebel" isn't a basis for bad etiquette. You're free to do whatever you like but being an edgy teen is inevitably going to reflect poorly on your character. You've been banned once at the behest of other members so imo don't go out of your way to accelerate your next ban in the name of "rebellion."

Added:

If by "lyrically advanced" you mean rap is capable of conveying the most complex messages and ideas through lyrics, then I would say yes, because it seems to allow for the highest quantity of words in a given space of time. But I think the argument that it has superior lyrical "flow" is nonsense. And I say that as a fan of Eminem and the Gorillaz.

Added:

I have been, am and always will be a rebel to the core of my being.

You will not tell me to ask you permission of something I have not only done already but which I enjoyed doing.

Added:

No I shouldn't seek permission from you. I could be a friend of his totally not on the site who reads this debate and helps him word for word if I wanted. You are saying that because I'm a member on the site I'm actually less valid to help him than not. This is not true.

Added:
Contender
--> @RationalMadman

You should seek permission from me before you start coaching him in a debate he's having against me. Melody is already defined and spitting is not a type of melody. That would be a specific technique. We can discuss more after the debate is done.

Added:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w20sqdJSH7Q

Added:

Rap is phenomenal, I will just give you two tracks that display everything you said rap lacks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndYpovMpW4Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNoAFYcYVs0

Added:

do you want me to say more in public? I'd rather not help publicly. I was just gonna PM him some fundamentals etc which isn't cheating as it's permitted for anyone to coach anyone so long as there's no conflict of interest and since I'm not in a debate against you and not debating the same topic there's no conflict for me to coach him at present. I was not gonna give him more than a guide towards what to look at fundamentally as he's new to 1v1 debating.