Instigator / Pro
21
1576
rating
12
debates
75.0%
won
Topic
#274

On Earth The Sun Actually Rises In The West And Sets In The East

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
12
3
Better sources
4
8
Better legibility
4
4
Better conduct
1
4

After 4 votes and with 2 points ahead, the winner is...

MagicAintReal
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Three days
Max argument characters
10,000
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
19
1697
rating
556
debates
68.17%
won
Description

*Rules*

1. The definitions below are agreed to by accepting the debate.

2. All votes *must* have thorough reasons for voting.

3. Moderators *must* remove inadequate votes that a) fail to address the majority of resolution-impacting points made by both debaters, b) are lies about debater performance, or c) are vendetta votes/overtly biased.

4. Death23 and his related accounts may not vote on or participate in this debate.
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*Full Resolution*
On earth, the sun actually rises in the west and sets in the east.

Pro
Has 3 rounds each with a 10,000 character limit + 3 days to post.
Pro also has the BoP to show that on earth, the sun actually rises in the west and sets in the east.

Con
Has 3 rounds each with a 10,000 character limit + 3 days to post.
Con also has to negate Pro's claims in order to cast enough doubt on the resolution.
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*Definitions*

on - physically in contact with and supported by.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/on

earth - the third planet from the sun in the solar system, orbiting between Venus and Mars at an average distance of 149.6 million km from the sun, on which we live.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/earth

sun - the star around which the earth orbits.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sun

actually - as the truth or facts of a situation; really.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/actually

rises - appears above the horizon (to an observer).
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/rise

west - denoting the western part of a specified area.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/west

sets - appears to move toward and below the horizon (to an observer).
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/set

east - denoting the eastern part of a specified area.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/east

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

This was not even a debate, it was more “who could provide the best definition for things.” Pro brings up a point, then Con argues that east doesn’t have to be west or something because it’s a social construct, and then pro just goes with that and it ends up as debating what’s north east south and west. Arguments to Pro because he actually made a valid point before it descended into semantic nonsense.

Sources go to Con. Con was providing sources like NASA and other reliable organizations while pro seemed to copy and paste his search history. S&G are tied.

Both debaters had poor conduct but since Pro kept calling out Con for “childish Chest puffing” and “Gish gallop,” this category goes to Con.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

This was the worst troll debate in the history of bad troll debates. It's obvious Pro set up the resolution and definitions as a trap in hopes for an easy win. This is proven in round 2 when Pro said: "Or you could just man up and admit that you were had by an alluring and unexpected resolution." and "You were already made a joke of by having to defend the idea that the Japanese don't observe sunsets or that Californians somehow miss out on sunrises, plus I think you end up making the case that longitudinal coordinates don't exist, or something equally stupid, and this further makes a joke of you." Conduct thus goes to con.

Now onto arguments. I didn't find pro's twist of the definitions to be all that compelling. Pro's entire argument rests on the idea that people on the eastern hemisphere observe sunsets and people on the western hemisphere observe sunrises. I'm not convinced at all by this semantics.

Con jumps in on round 1 and argues east and west are relative terms and the hemispheres are social construct but blunders when he states "All that aside, Pro will find that 'actually' the sun sets on the west just as much as it rises on [the west] and sets in the east just as much as rises on it."

The resolution is "on the earth the sun actually rises in the west and sets in the east."

The resolution states nothing about whether or not the inverse can be true or not. Con thus drops and concedes a major part of the resolution.

One of the biggest holes in pro's construct of the debate is that he fails to define the word in. Con should have immediately pounced on this word and define it as "expressing the situation of something that is or appears to be enclosed or surrounded by something else."
If con would have argued that from an observer in Tokyo the sun appears to rise in the East, then he would have had a solid case. Because con fails to do this, he loses the argument.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

Conduct to con: This debate was an exercise in semantic f**kwittery, it was presented as a reasonable debate, and as such it appears pro deliberately set up through the use of definitions and the specific rules to be excessively unfair to whoever accepts the debate. As such, this warrants a loss of conduct points. Bad form pro.

Arguments to pro. The individual definitions pro set up initially in the debate, almost tender the debate proposition tautology. Pro proves the locations are in the east and west, and by the chosen definitions, observers see the sun rise there. At this point pros arguments are merely reinforcing that tautology - there’s not a lot more to pros position other than arguing that Japan is in the east and LA is in the west. Pro establishes that with his sources and literally did not need to do anything else to establish the premise.

If con attempted to mount a poor defense primaril by haggling over whether calling. Japan and la as east and west - but as pro showed they are accepted as east and west by the definitions - he’s proven his contention.

Literally the ONLY way con could have won on arguments here, is if he had argued the definition of “in”, and attempted to argue that while the sun rises FOR observers in the east/west, the “in” refers to the direction of observation - which is always east/west. As con does not do that. He loses.

This was a horrible debate, and pro should feel bad about himself. If I could have awarded -5 conduct points I would have.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

This had to be one of the overall "worst" debates I've read on this site. It wasn't amusing in the way you expect a troll debate to be, but although the instigator claimed it was a serious debate, it eventually collapsed into chaos more so than any other debate I've seen.

Spelling and Grammar: Tie.
There wasn't anything to write home about in this category.

Conduct: Bad all around... But a tie.
Before casting this vote, I asked a moderator if behavior in the comments section could be used to justify conduct points in voting. I was told usually not, so that made it more difficult to render a verdict on this category. Since Pro insulted me and tried to influence my vote in the comments, that alone would have tipped this category to Pro. But if the comments don't count, then this category falls to a tie based on what happened in the actual debate. Con accused Pro of trolling during his arguments in the first and last rounds. Pro retaliated by insulting Con repeatedly in round 2, as well as repeatedly claiming that Con forfeited even when he explicitly stated that he did not. It was poor all around.

Convincing Arguments; Tie.
Pro opened his argument by claiming that the widely accepted scientific fact that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west is a "false falseism" (which would be a double negative that seems to negate itself). He then built a very brief argument that the rising and setting of the sun has a different perspective depending on if one is located in the Eastern or Western Hemisphere. If I'm understanding his obscure argument correctly, he seems to be inferring that the Sun sets in the "west" in the Western hemisphere because you would be facing in the direction of the Eastern hemisphere when watching it set, and the other way around for the Eastern hemisphere. Basically, the argument is clever wordplay based on the location of the hemispheres.

Con's rebuttal was to point out that the Eastern and Western hemispheres are social constructs. Unlike the Northern and Southern hemispheres which are based on the objective scientific fact that the earth has northern and southern magnetic poles. If the socially constructed hemispheres are ignored and we notice that the rising and setting of the sun are based on the rotation of the earth on it's axis, then we know that the sun will always rise and set in the same direction without regard for where one is located. As such, any argument based on the rising and setting of the sun which requires consideration of hemisphere must be scientifically irrelevant.

Beyond these initial opening arguments, everything else just became a mess as Pro repeatedly insisted that Con had forfeited and Con was forced to repeatedly deny this. Nothing else meaningful ever got accomplished. Ultimately, I feel this category must remain a tie because although Con gave an effective rebuttal of Pro's initial argument, the initial argument was really just wordplay to begin with and it wasn't really clear what was being argued at all. I think a tie may even be generous here.

Sources: Con.
This is the only category where points to one side are clearly warranted.

Pro both began and ended his argument with sources. However, it was never clear what those sources were meant to accomplish. Pro repeatedly used the examples of Los Angles and Tokyo, so in the first round he linked to a Google page showing the time of sunrise and sunset in those locations. However this debate wasn't about what time the sun rises or sets, but what direction these events take place in. The Google page Pro linked to says nothing about direction and thus fails to support his argument.

Conversely, when Con made any argument, he would provide a source (and often quote from that source) which explicitly said the same thing as the argument he was making. For example, when Con states that the Eastern and Western hemispheres are social constructs, he both links to and quotes from a source which says exactly that. As such, his sources clearly served the purpose of adding veracity to his argument, which cannot be said of the sources provided by Pro.

I have already been threatened with having this review removed if I voted against Pro in any way. However, before casting this vote I consulted with the moderators and received one on one coaching regarding how to ensure a vote meets all the requirements outlined in the rules. I cast this vote confident that it is compliant with the rules and welcome anyone who feels otherwise to report it and see what response the moderators provide.