Instigator / Con
7
1777
rating
79
debates
76.58%
won
Topic
#2802

Is YEC the most reasonable position for a Christian to hold?

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
3
3
Better sources
2
2
Better legibility
1
1
Better conduct
1
1

After 1 vote and with the same amount of points on both sides...

It's a tie!
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
5
Time for argument
One week
Max argument characters
12,000
Voting period
One month
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Pro
7
1487
rating
7
debates
35.71%
won
Description

Definitions:
-- Christian: one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ
[https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Christian]

-- Creationism: the belief that the world was made by God exactly as described in the Bible
[https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/creationism] (literally)

-- Young earth creationism: The idea that the days in genesis 1-2 are 24 hours long

-- PRO will post extra definition in the comment section

Rules:
1. Theology must be backed up with scriptural evidence.
2. Both Pro and Con can make claims about the bible and what it is, but must be ready to defend those views.
3. No new arguments in the last round.

The burden of proof is shared:
-- Pro: YEC is the correct position for a Christian to take.
-- Con: YEC is not the correct position for a Christian to take.

Good luck.

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@Benjamin

Thank you for the debate! If you are interested in another in eschatology I am interested.

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@fauxlaw

Thank you for voting!

Only 7 hours remain for voting.

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@PGA2.0

For future reference, as a voter, I am to consider content only with the text of the debate rounds, along with cited sources, but Comments are outside of consideration; therefore, I ignored your definitions, even though Con agreed to their location. His say so does not agree with Voting Policy, which disallows voting on the basis of outside comment. Neither opponents definitions were convincing, in any event.

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@whiteflame

I sympathize.

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@PGA2.0

We are both getting roasted it seems.

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@fauxlaw

Thank you for your vote

My vote: cont'd from #13
Sources: Sourcing by both opponents fail to convince any more than their arguments. Tie.

Legibility: My vote in this regard goes to both the Resolution/Description by Con [initiator] and in argument round by Pro. Con uses an acronym without defining it, assuming it is a commonly known term: YEC. What is that, an expression of disgust? I am a life-long Christian, but have never encountered the acronym. A simple definition of the acronym, to dissuade assumptions, would have been simple and prevent time taken away to find out for myself. Any debater ought to preclude this dissatisfaction simply by assuming the audience wants definition. Provide it. Pro makes the same mistake in R1 by the use of BB. Again, not familiar with the acronym. BB king? BB, the stock market acronym for BlackBerry? The projectile fired from a small gun? Any debater ought to… and finish as above. DEFINE YOUR TERMS. Acronyms, in particular. I have to consult Google to find the acronym, but Google failed to provide a definition in context with the debate. Actually, by a re-read, I find the it was Con who first provided the answer: big bang, but Con spelled it out, did not use an acronym. Google, itself, never gave me big bang. Tie, but holding my nose.

Conduct: Both opponents treat one another with sufficient respect. Tie.

Notes: I would have really liked to offer a winner, but both failed to convince with sufficient dedication to the Resolution, allowing themselves to be sidetracked by an absurd flat-earth extended discussion. As I said, shape of Earth is of no consequence to the Resolution. Would that it had led the way and the day. In this debate, I declare the Resolution as ignored, and the clear loser. Definitions were another loser, as noted on arguments. Both opponents should give them better deference. Pity.

My vote:
Argument: Con began R1 with a series of definitions; a long series. Once the argument began in earnest, I was still in a quandary when I was going to encounter the crux of the debate: is YEC a reasonable position? I wade through 1,400 words of definition and a scattered expose on scientific/philosophical jargon before encountering something that appears to have relevance to the Resolution, when, finally, the acronym YEC makes sense. I realize it is Young Earth Creation. And I find I must put away my bias because my own thinking on the matter definitively sides with Con. I can do that. I want to be convinced by either opponent based on their arguments, alone. But “Creation” is the 1,411th word in the Con R1 argument; it’s first mention when it is of ultimate necessity to the Resolution. Honestly, I am wondering why I have waited so long to encounter this critical word.
Conversely, Pro begins the R1 rebuttal that this debate is not about science, which Con goes to great lengths, at a frank disadvantage to himself, to effectively come to the same conclusion, but there is so much science offered by Con that Pro is inclined to feel it necessary to oppose. Con offer3es a simple rebuttal to science, that Christians should believe "…exactly as described IN the Bible." A good rebuttal to all the science discussed by Con. However, Con’s BoP is that science is the best explanation for Creation as not being YEC. But a period of activity over eons of time. Pro offers three propositions, all of which are supported by scripture, but none of the propositions convince that Pro has proven YEC. They do demonstrate God as the creator, but that is not relevant to the Resolution. Pro’s R1 could have had a convincing argument for YEC with his summary of a book by R. Raymond, with a discussion of “day,” [“yom” in Hebrew] and that this Hebrew word can signify a single day, or multiple days, and even points out the number of times “yom” appears biblically, and separates the usage as singular or plural, but then throws the argument a curve by saying that even in the 27% of the references of plural meaning, they also signify a single day. Yet, Pro never quotes Raymond directly, so we are left wondering just what is the point the author is making because Pro will not let us see his point. The argument fails on that missing quotation.
Con’s R2 begins by allowing that Pro has accepted all definitions. So, why must I have a regurgitation of them? In fact, having provided sufficient explanation of science in his R1, Con complains that Pro barely mentions “science,” [it is not Pro’s BoP to do so, by the way], but then cites several rebuttals from Pro’s R1, disputing that Pro does not mention it. Con declares that “Pro undermines our knowledge of the past,” while Pro has alleged that our past is described at length biblically. Con’s R2 argues the Pro has failed to provide an account of evolution, or that new stars are observed being “born,” ignoring that mention of these should be made to prove Pro’s BoP. Again, these are factors for Con to prove.
Pro’s R2 begins with questions for Pro, which neither offer argument for Pro, nor supports those arguments by sourcing. Questions are, indeed, challenges, but to what purpose? Pro also challenged a question in R1 with the same opinion on my part that questions are not arguments. Pro should just make argument, and support it to my convincing. I am not convinced of an argument by challenging questions. Pro then complains that Con assumed Pro’s acceptance of Con’s definitions, ands since Pro said naught about not accepting them in R1, and offering rebuttal to them, specifically, I am not now convinced of Pro’s sincerity by his denial only in R2, by which Pro concludes R2: denial of definitions.
R3 entertains a discussion entirely off-track hat actually began in Con’s R2, and spills into R3 as a knock-down/drag-out: flat earth. Neither opponent does their BoP credit by this off-debate subject, and I fear both have lost track of the Resolution, because, sphere or flat, Earth’s creation by YEC, or not, has completely fled the field.
R4, R5, ditto, and I’m done. Result: Neither side has convinced me of their argument. Tie.

cont'd in post #14

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@whiteflame

Understandeable. Thank you anyways.

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@Benjamin

Don’t think I’ll get a chance to do this one. Backlog of requests is already long, and this debate would be tough for me to stay neutral.

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@whiteflame
@MisterChris
@Nevets
@Sum1hugme
@Undefeatable

This topic might interest you.

Also, a vote would be highly appreciated.

vote bump

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@The_Meliorist

Objection accepted. There are as said, many ways to interpret the passages, and this debate only considers one option.

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@Benjamin

I must object to your definition of Young Earth Creationism, since one can believe that the days in genesis were literal 24-hour days, and be an Old earth Creationist. For example, Michael Jones from inspiringphilosophy believes that the days were literal, but the earth is old.

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@Benjamin

It's your dime. (^8

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@PGA2.0

I had to present a solid logical and scientific argument this round. I will turn to theology the next round.

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@Intelligence_06

But I favour the YEC position.

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@Intelligence_06

I think it is very reasonable to believe. I have not made up my mind completely on the issue.

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@PGA2.0

Do you believe that Young earth creationism is true to the world objectively or if it is just true to the bible itself?

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@Benjamin

As agreed upon in the Description, CON is allowing me to post additional definitions that I think will be needed for my argument that was not included in the Description. Here they are:

Definitions:

Scientism
1: methods and attitudes typical of or attributed to the natural scientist
2: an exaggerated trust in the efficacy of the methods of natural science applied to all areas of investigation (as in philosophy, the social sciences, and the humanities)
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scientism

Exegesis - "a critical explanation or interpretation of a text, especially a religious text. Traditionally the term was used primarily for work with the Bible. In modern usage, biblical exegesis is used to distinguish it from other critical text explanation."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exegesis

Eisegesis - "the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text.[1] It is often done to "prove" a pre-held point of concern, and to provide confirmation bias corresponding with the pre-held interpretation and any agendas supported by it."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisegesis

The Laws of Logic - (1) the law of noncontradiction, (2) the law of excluded middle, and (3) the principle of identity.
https://arcapologetics.org/three-laws-logic/

Self-evident truths - "containing its own evidence or proof without need of further demonstration; Requiring no proof or explanation."
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/self-evident
***
"clear or obvious without needing any proof or explanation"
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/self-evident

Necessary being - "a Being of which it is impossible that it should not exist."
https://philosophy.lander.edu/intro/necessity.shtml

Efficient Cause - "the immediate agent in the production of an effect." https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/efficient%20cause or "that which produces an effect by a causal process."
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/efficient-cause

Thank you, CON for agreeing to this!