Instigator / Pro
28
1531
rating
2
debates
100.0%
won
Topic
#2821

Resolved: The Impeachment Trial of Donald John Trump in the United States Senate was Unconstitutional

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
12
0
Better sources
8
4
Better legibility
4
4
Better conduct
4
4

After 4 votes and with 16 points ahead, the winner is...

ILikePie5
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
4
Time for argument
One week
Max argument characters
8,000
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
12
1485
rating
3
debates
33.33%
won
Description

RESOLVED: The Impeachment Trial of Donald John Trump in the United States Senate was Unconstitutional

For this debate the Structure is as follows:

R1: Arguments Only
R2: Rebuttals to R1
R3: Rebuttals to R2
R4: Closing Statements (No New Arguments)

For the purpose of this debate:

Constitution - a document that embodies the fundamental laws and principles by which the United States is governed. It was drafted by the Constitutional Convention and later supplemented by the Bill of Rights and other amendments.

Unconstitutional - not constitutional; unauthorized by or inconsistent with the constitution, as of a country.

U.S. Senate - the upper chamber of the United States Congress, which, along with the United States House of Representatives—the lower chamber—constitutes the legislature of the United States.

Most definitions for the purpose of this debate will come in the debate itself from the U.S. Constitution; these are just some general definitions, which have been discussed with my opponent prior to start.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

Argument: Pro’s argument is fully drawn from the text of the US Constitution in Articles I and II communicating everything the Constitution contains regarding impeachment and conviction, and from the Federalist Papers, composed to present the direct thinking of three of the Founding Fathers on the proposed content of the Constitution as it was being debated by the Continental Congress. Pro’s interpretation of that language is sound, particularly as compared to passages from the Federalist Papers. For example, Pro’s argument that only sitting officers, including the President in particular [the subject of this debate] can be impeached in the House [not the subject of this debate], and tried in the Senate [the full scope of this debate], can be tried is understood by specific language in the Constitution [Article II, 4]. Con’s argument that former Presidents can be tried in the Senate to prohibit their future attempt to obtain political office not only stretches proper understanding of constitutional content, but assumes that punishment of removal from office is still available to the Senate for a former holder of office, and further, that the punishment of prohibition from future hold of office can be applied separately to a former holder of office. Neither the verbiage of the Constitution, nor precedent of prior impeachments support Con’s claim. Further, Pro argues in R4 concerning the notion of removal from office, and disqualification from future office are two separate punishments that are necessarily sequential, that the second cannot be a single consideration void of the first, and that both are not necessarily to be imposed but by decision of the Senate, case by case. Con’s argument against these notions were not sufficiently proven but by Con argument, without sufficient supportable evidence. Finally, Pro argues for both Constitutional originalism, and Senate precedent, and that both figure into the subject of this debate, against which Con unsuccessfully rebuts. Con argues that Trump, having left office by term limit, is still a proper defendant in a Senate impeachment trial, ignoring that the Constitution clearly stipulates that currency in office is necessarily relevant to achieve removal from office as a consequence of conviction. Pro’s rebuttal is that the constitutional language is clear on that point, or, otherwise, George Washington could be a potential subject of impeachment and conviction, though dead over two hundred years. Con argues in R3 that Article II,4 does not point exclusively only to current office holders “only,” but Pro rebuts correctly that only current office holders wear those titles named; that being “former” office holders does not qualify by the language of the Article. Points to Pro.

Sources: The primary source for both opponents in the debate is the text of the Constitution, although pro also cites support by the Federalist Papers. Yet, Con argues in R1 that originalism is not relevant in the debate when the most glaring dichotomy of the opponents is over that very point, originalist vs, non-originalist interpretation of the Constitution’s textual interpretation. And for Con to thereby argue that removal from office need not be precedent to prohibit further seeking of office is not an originalist or non- interpretation; Pro correctly offers the appropriate syntax of Article II,4. An opponent's interpretation of a source is as necessary to an argument as is a cited source properly supporting an opponent’s argument. Pro wins the source points.

Legibility: Both opponents produce legible content. Tie.

Conduct: Both opponents display proper regard for one another. Tie.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

More in comments #45-43.

My general takeaway is that the senate went about the impeachment trial in non-constitutional ways, not that impeaching a president or thereafter holding a trial inherently were in violation. That as a private citizen a former office holder can face normal criminal charges for their actions in office, was an excellent point to support this theme of how pointless holding a trial after they’ve left office is; however, I was not convinced that it would outright be unconstitutional, merely a waste of time (intuitively, both democrats and republicans are probably disappointed said criminal trials do not seem to occur with any regularity… I could have sworn each side promised to lock up the other’s presidential nominee for 2016).

In essence con was caught in a couple Catch-22s:
I. The actions of the senate could be considered constitutional because they did it, setting a new precedent and all that; but con was insisting from the outset that we should stick to an originalist interpretation, even while admitting there’s bizarre things like a Trump presidency they never could have imagined.
II. the senate only being able to try Mr. Trump if trying him as the president, but then deciding to not use the judge required for trying the president. This is a having your cake and eating it too kind of situation.

Well I feel sources lean toward pro, con did an adequate job engaging with them for me to leave this within the tied range.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

I spent 3 days writing my original 8,030-character RFV only to find the limit is 5,000. It is easier to rewrite it from scratch then squeeze it to fit, so here I go:

Ultimately what the debate boiled down to, for me, in the final round was the strength of Pro's 3 examples versus Con's 1 example, the definition of "and" in the phrase containing the word "singly", and whether it's an overstatement that validating the trial also implies extending Congress' power to our doorsteps.

I find Con's argument against the 3 examples excessively semantic because they appear to force Pro into a catch-22, even though that isn't the term Pro used: Do not use examples of trials which failed to materialize as precedent for failing to materialize trials.

Con accused Pro of trying to read Reid's mind but Pro provided the only viable explanation for his actions.

At least technically, Pro is correct regarding whether the trial of private citizen Trump implies Congress has gained the power to try private citizens.

Pro's quotes most explicitly supported their own position.

For these reasons I give Pro argument points, and for their 3 examples versus Con's singular, inferior (at least in quantity) example, I also give Pro source points.

My original 8,030-character RFV can be found here: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5782-my-original-rfd-for-resolved-the-impeachment-trial-of-donald-john-trump

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

This debate was about whether Trump's impeachment was constitutional. Pro thinks it was. Pro lays out some criteria for impeachment (high crimes and misdemeanors). Pro missed that removal from office was the sole remedy available to the senate; you can't remove from office someone who doesn't hold the same; but tries to cite some historical reasons why this was without precedent. Con says otherwise. Con says there is historical precedent (e.g., from England, via trial of non-president Warren Hastings in 1785) and speculates that the founders actually intended "disqualification" to be an available remedy (which PRO readily notes the weakness of) --- squarely contradicted by the quote from Art. I, Sec. 3, Cl. 7 which clearly states that the legislature's sole remedy is removal ("Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office"). CON could have cited Cannon's Precedents (Sec. 512, https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GPO-HPREC-CANNONS-V6/pdf/GPO-HPREC-CANNONS-V6.pdf) in support of the proposition that there is some historical support that the senate may subsequently and separately vote on whether to disqualify a successfully impeached president from holding future office of any kind, but he missed that point. But the plain language of the rest of Cl. 7 makes clear that this is a separate procedure than impeachment ("and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States"); i.e., impeachment is different than vote on disqualification. The issue is whether Trump's trial was constitutional; the fact that the legislature may separately vote to disqualify him from holding future office is irrelevant and which PRO essentially states in rebuttal. PRO established that private citizens can't be impeached. CON speculated that this might have been considered by the founders, but doesn't have evidence to support constitutionality of such a process. Fact that a separate procedure might exist to disqualify from holding future office doesn't change this result. PRO wins.

Both sides left a lot of money on the table. Each could have made better arguments, cited better and more relevant sources (i.e., federalist papers on impeachment and specifically on relevant constitutional provisions, etc.). No one side cited better sources than the other. I noticed no appreciable difference in spelling or grammar; both did about the same.