Greco Roman Wrestling is preferable to Kung Fu for winning fights
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 1 vote and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...
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- 3
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- Open
No kritiks
Fight - take part in a violent struggle involving the exchange of physical blows or the use of weapons; not necessarily restricted by a ruleset
Win - to end the fight by physically subduing the opponent
- Always be on top.
- When on top, stay on top.
- When on bottom do everything you can to get on top.
- Don't be tempted by the lazy and seductive nature of the closed guard.
In a fight, there are three "areas" within which the fight takes place.
- The initial distance, or the stand up portion, where the fight typically begins. This is the striking range and the outside of the striking range.
- The clinch, which is typically entered into naturally when striking begins.
- The ground.
- Similar to the 'initial distance' Pro mentions, the use of sticks, stones, legs, and even the arms (in a hand-stand position) to abuse long-range and hurt the enemy while the enemy can't fight back or doesn't expect it. This also applies in shorter-range too, when your arms are loose and theirs aren't etc.
- 'The clinch' in W, is much more split up in KF, there is 'dodging' as a core skill referring to the handling of opponents who have superior range advantage and ability on you.
- The third concept is to train your brain and body to be flexible with the situation. More than any other martial art, KF teaches you to never have only trained at a specific striking pattern or muscle movement, instead it encourages you to train brutally at a variety but still to train each punch, kick, dodge, lock etc very much. In other words, while it encourages adaptability very much, it doesn't just say 'be adaptable' it gives specifics on what to practise in each 'department' so you can outplay/outfight your opponent no matter what style they bring to the table.
- The fourth concept is constant attention to both breathing and balance. These are often taught with the same 'forms' and are strongly pushed at an early stage in KF. The ability to never once be low on oxygen or caught off balance means you never spend a group of milliseconds, let alone second, making up for what you are short of. You do not ever 'force' the opponent to lose balance or oxygen, that is one unique thing about KF, instead you train to consistently have perfect breathing and balance yourself and only exploit the opponent if they themselves have made an error. This applies to all situations in KF when it comes to deciding the 'when' and 'how' of pulling off a move on the opponent. You do not force mistakes via aggression, you observe and remain defensive and elusive yourself.
- The fifth concept is where W and KF can finally see eye to eye, grappling. Except if you put a KF Sifu against a W expert, they won't let the wrestler get close enough to maintain their grip long enough to win the fight. You will see immense grappling skills, grip-loosening elbows, knees, locks, twists etc to force the opponent to relinquish their control of the grapple. Even if the KF person is on the ground and being kept down there with force, they will time their breathing, focus on their positioning and notice where the opponent is maintaing the 'lockdown' stance and either hurt the opponent elsewhere to loosen them where they have the iron grip or passively resist the opponent with very well positions defensive maneuvres until the opponent realises they need to work harder to finish them off. This will take respiratory and even emotional tenacity away from the opponent so once the situation is undone, the KF practioner has the entire advantage and will force the fight to remain away from the 'third area' that Pro speaks about.
I follow the following advice for fighting on the ground:
- Always be on top.
- When on top, stay on top.
- When on bottom do everything you can to get on top.
- Don't be tempted by the lazy and seductive nature of the closed guard.
The reasoning behind this game plan is because far more often than not, the man on the bottom is losing the fight. And no discipline, especially kung fu, teaches one the intricacies of fighting for clinch domination, clinch takedown, and top position control as thoroughly as Greco-Roman wrestling (except maybe freestyle wrestling).
- Bigger (or as big), this means weight class more than height.
- Stronger gripping and more experienced with the 'back and forth' motions of grappling and brutally keeping the opponent on the floor (or flipping them around if you are beneath)
- Close enough to start doing this and superior at knowledge of handling close-range combat
- In a ring or environment where it's either enclosed or there's reason the opponent is scared to escape (or the surface is somehow slippery)
- Weapons are basically not available or are being held by someone pathetic at using them (I'll rebuke Pro on KF being bad at this in R2)
- There is only one (or maximum two) opponents to handle and neither is a proficient fighter to force you off of the other one
- Any old bloke can give you a good one when you're not expecting it. Hitting someone when they don’t expect it is not exclusive to Kung Fu.
- My opponent provided no sourcing to demonstrate what technique he is referring to, and I can't find it online. However, the idea of "dodging" in a clinch doesn't make much sense. In the clinch you are entangled with the opponent, fighting for a superior clinch position. Pummeling is the process of fighting for a dominant control position. Once a dominant position is established, the wrestler may keep it standing or take the opponent down and establish a dominant position on the ground. No amount of dodging is going to prevent that if you don't know how to fight for a dominant clinch position. KF is inadequate for teaching how to fight for a dominant position in the clinch.
- While kung fu may encourage variety, it's lack of real epistemology, and lack of viable technique, necessarily leaves the kung fu practitioner in a worse position in a fight than a greco Roman wrestler. I would have liked if my opponent had provided some source material so we could analyze these techniques. However, Greco-Roman wrestling teaches brutally effective techniques for controlling the fight, And if you want to, slamming the opponent on their head. No mysticism here, just hard Olympic epistemology, developed over the last few thousand years.
- The concept of breathing and balance is not exclusive to Kung Fu. Standing up the right way in the clinch, having your weight adjusted properly, and breathing properly are all fundamental to Greco-Roman wrestling. No Kung Fu technique is going to be more effective than a suplex. I invite my opponent to source a technique.
- It is necessarily the wrestler's decision where the fight takes place. It is unrealistic to think that you can strike the opponent consistently while not getting in to tie up range. The best strikers in mixed martial arts necessarily have to train wrestling so that they have the technique to get onto their feet and work their a-game. In the overwhelming majority of fights, the superior wrestler determines where the fight takes place. Once upon a kung fu practitioner is on the ground, he's getting smashed. Consolidating the top position is fundamental to Greco-Roman wrestling, because of the emphasis on pinning. Kung fu does not teach you how to pummel. So once forced into a clinch, the Kung Fu practitioner will lose the dominant position, and get slammed. Once on the bottom he's going to be carrying his opponent's weight, and eating his opponent's strikes. In the video I provided of the Wing Chun practitioner fighting the MMA practitioner, the mixed martial artist shot, took down his opponent, and went into the knee-mount position. From the knee-mount position, he began delivering elbows to the opponent's face. I wager this is pretty much exactly what would happen: the Kung Fu practitioner throws some strikes, gets tied up, loses the clinch position, gets slammed or thrown, gets mounted, and gets his face beaten in with strikes.
“Pro's mentality and strategy only work if you are all of the following:
- Bigger (or as big), this means weight class more than height.
- Stronger gripping and more experienced with the 'back and forth' motions of grappling and brutally keeping the opponent on the floor (or flipping them around if you are beneath)
- Close enough to start doing this and superior at knowledge of handling close-range combat
- In a ring or environment where it's either enclosed or there's reason the opponent is scared to escape (or the surface is somehow slippery)
- Weapons are basically not available or are being held by someone pathetic at using them (I'll rebuke Pro on KF being bad at this in R2)
- There is only one (or maximum two) opponents to handle and neither is a proficient fighter to force you off of the other one”
“ Are you going to teach a woman to just wrestle with her bigger, stronger male rapist?”
1. Any old bloke can give you a good one when you're not expecting it. Hitting someone when they don’t expect it is not exclusive to Kung Fu.
KF is there for people of all sizes, backgrounds, fitness levels and reasons for doing martial arts.In real life, many things are at our disposal, even the concept of screaming for help at the right time in the right way (so you didn't waste oxygen, for instance) are concept understood by the highest level of KF practitioners. Are you going to teach a woman to just wrestle with her bigger, stronger male rapist?
The knees/kicks to a grounded opponent does favor wrestlers, because they basically have free reign to shoot without fear of consequences. That's really it, though.
the fact that you basically can't mount any effective offense against someone who goes for a takedown definitely and unfairly favors wrestlers. You can't thrown 12/6 elbows, and you can't knee or kick someone who has one knee or hand down; those are the best strikes to use against someone going for a takedown.
And here are the reason why, as we present the top 10 health benefits of martial arts:
- Total body workout: Martial arts are a high-aerobic workout that uses every muscle group in the body. Your stamina, muscle tone, flexibility, balance and strength will all improve through martial arts.
- Healthy lifestyle: Due to the total-body nature of a martial arts workout, tons of calories are burned during every class. However, you’ll also find that your natural eating signals become better regulated, so food cravings will disappear and you’ll eat less as a result.
- Self confidence: Due to the goal setting, positive encouragement and respect for values that are part of all martial arts programs, the greatest benefit usually reported by martial arts students is greater self-confidence. You become more comfortable in all situations – whether you’re in danger or simply doing a task that takes you beyond your comfort zone — and you’ll discover you can accomplish anything you set your mind to.
- Improved cardiovascular health: Research has found that the only real way to improve the status of the cardiovascular system is by participating in activities that stress the heart, lowering blood pressure, and enhancing sleep quality. The results are not purely physical - practitioners may find it helps alleviate depression and anxiety and improves the mood. such as martial arts.
- Weight loss: A one hour session of moderate intensity martial arts can burn up to 500 calories.
- Improved reflexes: Research has found that by participating in martial arts, you not only improve your reflexes while performing the activity, but actually experience faster reaction times during all activities of your life. This is very important in a number of daily activities, such as driving.
- Focus and stillness: As Bruce Lee pointed out, behind the punches, kicks and knees, a true martial artist learns to sit with himself and see where his weaknesses are. As a martial artist, your will learn what it is to be still, challenged and focused.
- Teaches great morals and values: Martial arts wisdom has it that after consistent practice, one becomes less impulsive and aggressive towards others. The Shaolin moral code for example comprises 12 ethics, 10 forbidden acts and 10 obligations. Patience, insight and calmness are considered pre-requisites of good Kung Fu. This reminds students of the right attitude, frame of mind and virtues to strive for inside and outside the studio.
- Muscle tone: By participating in martial arts, you can greatly improve the amount of muscle mass you have in your body. The higher your muscle mass, the higher your metabolic demands will be, and subsequently the more calories you will burn each day, thereby helping prevent obesity and promote weight loss. High levels of muscle mass also lead to increased agility, thereby preventing falls as you age.
- Better mood: Researchers have found that participating in a regular exercise routine is one of the best ways to improve your mood. Performing martial arts is not only a good way to relieve stress and frustration, but may actually help to make you happier. The endorphins released by physical activity appear to be active in your body for as many as four hours after exercise.
Pain compliance is only effective against wimps, not a tough, determined opponent bent on your destruction. Damage is always, invariably, more reliable than pain compliance.
"This is actually me using the same idea itself in how I structure my rebuttal. In fighting me on the concept of 'hit the enemy when they don't expect it or can't fight back' being applicable to even an elderly man fighting, Pro has inadvertently conceded and set in stone one of my other points. I do not deny that Kung Fu can be done well enough by an elderly practitioner, though a supple, fit younger adult towards middle-aged adult will probably have the best balance between having a very refined body in terms of both flexibility and strength and the hardened, toughened joints and body parts to handle complex, difficult combos and moves."
"...but every time you go for it, they either evade you sneakily and strike you back or they make your move itself hurt you by good manevres that lock you or hurt you more...Kung Fu teaches you to be fast, flexible and brutal (in your hits)."
"To show that MMA prefers strikers, Pro shows us a fight where a grappler defeated a striker."
"This is a comment from a user on a forum but perfectly illustrates what I'm trying to say:'The knees/kicks to a grounded opponent does favor wrestlers, because they basically have free reign to shoot without fear of consequences. That's really it, though'"
“Here comes at a later page:the fact that you basically can't mount any effective offense against someone who goes for a takedown definitely and unfairly favors wrestlers. You can't thrown 12/6 elbows, and you can't knee or kick someone who has one knee or hand down; those are the best strikes to use against someone going for a takedown.
“I am talking about headbutts to the nose where you die from it, during the grapple, that isn't unique to KF but is definitely part of their teachings (Shaolin Monks harden their head specifically for this) ”
“As for fitness and all that stuff, Kung Fu is just as good if not better."
“As for the weapons stuff. Pro doesn't know what he's talking about...KF trains not just to stop weapons but use them."
“This is great. Now tell me how you will deal with a neck grab to your adam's apple. That is a KF signature move in life-threatening situations especially vs eager grapplers.”
I follow the following advice for fighting on the ground:
- Always be on top.
- When on top, stay on top.
- When on bottom do everything you can to get on top.
- Don't be tempted by the lazy and seductive nature of the closed guard.
- Similar to the 'initial distance' Pro mentions, the use of sticks, stones, legs, and even the arms (in a hand-stand position) to abuse long-range and hurt the enemy while the enemy can't fight back or doesn't expect it. This also applies in shorter-range too, when your arms are loose and theirs aren't etc.
- 'The clinch' in W, is much more split up in KF, there is 'dodging' as a core skill referring to the handling of opponents who have superior range advantage and ability on you.
- The third concept is to train your brain and body to be flexible with the situation.
- The fourth concept is constant attention to both breathing and balance.
- The fifth concept is where W and KF can finally see eye to eye, grappling.
Argument - "Greco Roman Wrestling is preferable to Kung Fu for winning fights"
Now, fighting is a tricky business, and fighting styles are even moreso - but I do think that I have a valid vote here: Ultimately the debaters were trying to argue that their respective style was better at winning fights, I'm including - knocking out, exhausting, causing the opponent to give up, winning in regulated matches, etc - all of those encompass winning fights.
Starting with the most impactful argument - Kung Fu's practice without resisting opponents. Not once did Con argue against this, and while Con does point out - what seem to be very effective and unrebutted points for strikes that can end fights - Con never actually provides sources to prove that pracitioners can actually pull these kinds of moves off - and Pro directly attacks these arguments. That moves like eye-gouging and neck grappling can't really be utilized by KF without the Wrestler taking advantage, and while I don't actually buy all of those arguments - Con simply never provides evidence that KF users can actually pull these moves off enough to win fights. This argument goes to Pro.
The Distance - Pro argues that all fights will inevitably enter clinch range, and that from there - the fighters trained to dominate in such spheres will obviously defeat the strike-based fighters. Con argues that such a distance isn't necessarily the case, as KF users will keep distance and stop the wrestler from getting their hands on them. Now - Con actually backs this up - they provide a source proving that KF increases reflexes and health of their users, and Pro never really argues against this point aside that the wrestler would just be able to pull it off anyway. My problem with Pro's argument is that he provides a single example of a regulated match - so even if I buy that Pro's argument is true - it only applies in one instance of a fight. Con's argument that KF users would deny Wrestlers their speciality isn't properly rebutted and the logic behind Con's arguments are sound - so I'm giving the point to Con here.
Variety - this is another of the most important arguments to me - this is what determines which is more useful in non-regulated matches. Con brings up some good points, that Pro's chosen style is something which is very likely to be taken down if the circumstances aren't just right - as being able to wrestle down your opponent is relying on the fact that no one else will just intervene; however, Con's argument is just as weakened, as he provides no real proof that KF will be able to hold off multiple opponent's any better, and Pro also throws doubt on KF ability to even strike - even if I buy that KF users can dodge, Con just doesn't give enough to argue that they can win the fight. Con at least does prove that Wrestling is effective at taking down people in regulated matches, and good at 1v1 situations - this goes to Pro, although it is very narrowly.
To summarize the main points: Pro puts heavy doubt on KF's ability to actually bring opponent's down, and Con does very little to address the criticism, Pro attempts to further discredit Kf by arguing that fights will almost always end up in Clinch where Wrestling will come out on top, but Con does have a solid argument to say that KF users can stay out of range of their best ability. Finally, Con argues that Wrestling can't take out more than a single opponent, but Pro's arguments put KF on the same level - so far Pro is leading in points that have convinced me - ultimately I am swayed to Pro's side - Con you just didn't give enough evidence that a KF user would actually be able to utilize those moves effectively - and you dropped the points whenever Pro brought it up, I need proof that KF can do what you claim it can that aren't movies. Pro, I didn't buy a lot of your arguments about how superior wrestling was, as a lot of your logic was contradicting, but you ultimately had more evidence that proved it could actually bring down foes.
Both debaters did a bad job of backing up their claims with substantive evidence, but Con did just a little worse in that regard, and with Pro's specific attack on KF's veracity, that leaves Con at a loss.
you believing that will serve the kung fu practitioner very well. :)
Most of your arguments, such as eye gouging, I wouldn't see working on a good wrestler of the same weight. Wrestlers are all about control, and they frequently control jiu jitsu fighters on the ground, who are all about chokes and breaking bones. So the argument that they can just gouge their eyes out or "break their fingers" isn't going to work 8/10 of the time. In a fight, Bruce Lee and Jacky Chan would almost certainly be completely controlled by a wrestler. A good wrestler will take you down no matter how good your "kung fu dodging skills" and "kung fu breathing" is. In a real fight you're going to get gassed if someone doesn't get knocked out in the first 3 minutes.
you clearly didn't read my explanation in the debate as to why kung fu is nerfed in UFC format. observe the rules.
All it takes is to look at the UFC to know which is the best martial arts. Wrestlers dominate. Kung fu? not so much. If a woman wants to learn a fighting style, I suggest jiu jitsu.
How could I have done better?
Thank you for voting
I tried to vote as fairly as possible, do remember that I'm not entirely knowledgable here - but I do think that you had some... bad arguments in there, you really only won because your opponent dropped points - that's not a victory of skill, that's a victory of luck - always always make sure that your evidence is more substantive, if RMM decided to use some better sources you could have lost this.
Vote bump
Ah don't be that way, it's only three rounds and I had to address your new arguments.
You are interested in fighting. Please consider voting
bunch of brand new sources and arguments in final Round, is that some kind of wrestling etiquette lol
Dear Judges, please take the time to look at and compare our sources, as they are integral to my argument.
Vote bump
Lol
the link I posted regarding gun defence actually agrees with you but in Round 3 I will explain why wrestling is still worse.
Much like the rules inhibit the kungfu master in an MMA ring, the rules here restrict you. The question is if you can adapt to the enemy and situation or not ;)
I'm really having trouble fitting this into character limit. So i'm gonna have to cut out a lot of quotation.
*akin not askin
You are confusing kung fu for karate or something. Kung fu isn't a strike-specific martial art, it's an extreme hybrid.
In my opinion, wrestlers have more flexibility and time to apply techniques in a street fight while also besting their attackers with strength. Strikers as in Kung fu specialists might have a long range advantage of kicking right into oblivion but they've got less time to make that work. In turn, they're mentally challenged to make some quick moves and thus most probably make a mistake on the way. In an ideal scenario of a wrestler vs striker, the wrestler ducks and takes you down even before the kick or the punch comes to play. And then the striker has very less to offer since he's going deep under the pressure on that concrete.
The days of being specifically a striker or a grappler specialist are behind us. The modern MMA fighter wins because they are well rounded. While MMA isn't perfect, it is a fantastic arena to test what techniques work and what don't. However, I would want them to remove the gloves and remove the rounds in favor of just one 25 minute round.
Ironically, you are wrong and so are MMA-supremacists.
MMA-supremacists believe thar MMA ring-fighting is the supreme sport environment to judge one's real world application of their martial arts. The reason Kung Fu is rarely the championed martial art of am MMA fighter is that they tend to specialise either in striking or grappling, not in swift combo maneuvers that revolve around dodging and turning aggression against the opponent, that makes for a weak MMA show.
MMA is any combination of techniques from different arts, it isn't a style in itself. An individual developing a particular style of MMA fighting is the natural product of ruthlessly applying epistemology to ones martial art.
Lol to answer your question, the wrestler would throw him on his head.
I hope we can have more martial art debates.
Wrestling is great once you're neck and neck with the enemy, however even then, what will you do when a Kung Fu master uses their elbows and leg-positioning to make you incapable of maintaining the grapple?
A lot of MMA-supremacists talk about how now superstar champions Kung Fu, yet if they properly knew what Kung Fu was, so many of these MMA guys are using Kung Fu and Karate principles and footwork, let alone specific teachings of how to angle kicks and grappling that aren't part of their claimed martial art.
I have seen guy say they are thai boxers in MMA who are actually doing Karate style roundhouse instead of Muay Thai when they deliver the killer kick.
People think Kung Fu is just for show, instead it is one of the best martial arts for show because it has so much depth to it. It is a way of life.
Karate is also a way of life but a very aggressive one with a type of discipline that Kung Fu preaches differently. Both are 'deep' though, however Kung Fu is definitely 'deeper' and any Karate master would admit that because simplicity is an important aspect of how Karate combos are developed, whereas the highest level of Kung Fu involves extremely nuance, bluffing and calculated tactics in ways Karate does not.
There's a difference between a martial artist and a martial arts themed entertainer; and the same difference separates martial arts from martial arts themed entertainment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dxab06e91A
https://youtu.be/PcEvGP7eVPE?t=95
You'd best be ready.