Instigator / Pro
Points: 20

Build the Wall

Finished

The voting period has ended

After 5 votes the winner is ...
RationalMadman
Debate details
Publication date
Last update
Category
Politics
Time for argument
Three days
Voting system
Open voting
Voting period
Six months
Point system
Four points
Rating mode
Rated
Characters per argument
30,000
Contender / Con
Points: 33
Description
1st round: Pro waives, Con presents opening arguments.
2nd round: Pro presents opening arguments, Con presents rebuttals and any new arguments.
3rd round: Pro presents rebuttals and any new arguments, Con presents rebuttals; no new arguments.
4th round: Pro presents rebuttals; no new arguments, Con waives.
Round 1
Published:
I thank RationalMadman for accepting this debate. Per the rules, I waive this round.
Published:
Beat to the rap (to help with slower paced reading, play on repeat by right clicking and choosing 'Loop' option): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIeTR8mmV3Y

Click for relevant links on the blue text. If you don't trust me, right-click it, select 'copy link address' and paste in URL bar to read it before pressing enter.

I write in British English but read the rap in Trump's accent.

HUGEST CREDIT TO THIS SOURCE, IT HELPED ME A LOT WITH FRAMING THE PUNS AND HARD-HITTING FACTS.

This be the Dee-onald T, here to save USA,
Here pave the way to the greatness like way way back in the day,
Back when the walls didn't save natives from enslavement,
When they were raped as they prayed a wall strong enough were there from times ancient,
'Cause I'm living proof, and so are all of my kind that illegal immigration is a nightmare to which we are blind,
It's time to remind you, of bullshit from before, of stories so old, they don't have relevance anymore,
Of rapists, of thieves and other lies you believe, anything to get the crowd roaring "Crooked Clinton" on repeat,
And when the stampede dies down, they'll forget the lies that I spread,
That the Mexican's'd pay for it and that I'd make the working class put the blood, sweat and tears in order to increase while having abused those working class adults and chi-ldren leaving the nation $21.7 Tri-llion in debt.

All these broken promises, yet the one I gotta keep is the fence, I mean 'defence' of the sheep, 
FAAAAYKNeeeewz if you spit the truth every week, send bombs to your mailbox, read 'em and weep,
CNN the REAL ENEMY of the PEOPLE, send subliminal death threats by tweets, never let the left sleep,
When I said I'd make Mexico pay for a wall built for the sake our nation, I clearly meant it as an exaggeration,
That's why the moment I was President, it was very evident I'd go back on everything I promised, China's a real GREAT NATION,
Sorry I meant to say they're GREAT at currency manipulation, oh wait not that's a left-wing-thing, I take it back thanks for your consideration,
So this wall, oh yes the wall, that's the topic at hand, The wall that'll separate the shithole nations from this land,
Oh wait no, shithole nations are Africa and Haiti(hay-tee), I may have blonde hair but I aint Slim Shady,
So where was I again? Remind me, my friend? One, two, six, seven, nine, three, ten,
Oh yes, I was saying, I'm considering a 'buffet o' options', like how I'll ignore the ~620 billion dollars worth of trade wi' Meheeco and add ways to evade tax, no consequences if you got no conscience,
See, not enough people know about Destination Based Sales Factor, so nonsense can replace the truth as I sit back and strongly consider deals that make our nation an auction, Putin is my Daddy and I don't mean gay adoption.

So, about that wall, yes that wall's the topic, yes about that 'uge wall, I say once Mexico says 'Si, señor Trump we'll pay' none can stop it.
Because the realest politician to hit the scene keeps promises, or at least he aims at the toilet but er... Fox News? Faux News please some news say 'Trump never misses'
Oh yes, back to the point, back to the wall, I think if we build it it's gotta be tall, I mean 'uge, I mean magnificently tall, it's easy right? The cost is so small... Oh wait... I never said that, because even amongst the crap I spew a lie like that is too low for me to stoop to 'n' fall,
Wait a minute, have a sense of humour, I was only kidding, please just blame Chuck Schumer, I never said I'd build this way or that at all...
Well Pink Floyd'd be proud, you can't really be that appalled, I'm paying homage, after all, I'm just another prick... with no wall!

I don't hate all Latinos, I do adore those Dominicans why can't all of their kind be more like Brazilians?
I love Mexican Americans, well I tolerate their people, I just hate if they're rapists, or the kind of immigrant that's illegal,
So before you bastardise me with fake news 'n' that lot, how about we sit and deal with big issues and really evil people,
I'm not horrible at all, I'm just a hero for y'all, and I'm the realest politician to take on Wall Street in a brawl,
So before fake news bores a hole in my reputation let this nation stand tall and proud as it worship my metaphorical wall.
I've been fighting for $1.6 billion since last July and goodbye to it since it got rejected that summer, and yet again in the fall.

What are the benefits of wasting money on the wall you may ask? Zero, it's just not worth it end of story, kiss my ass.
Round 2
Published:
My rap is inferior but I hope people enjoy it. Note: I wasn’t writing this with any particular beat, but pretty much any beat will work if you play it the whole time.

This rabid leftist think illegal immigration’s no problem
I might be wrong but I have a hunch that’s he’s an alcoholic
Scratch that, I don’t hunch, I know that he’s jobless
Be licking my a** like chocolate
I’m sipping my goblet in solace while he hobbles

12 million aliens [1] in our beautiful country
And to put it bluntly
Many of them are grungy like chutney
“Go back to your third world countries!”
Trump says, puts every Democrat on ends
And they pretend they befriend
Every illegal that they tend

And so, to build a wall is not an outrageous idea
You really wanna end up like Crimea?
Or Democratic People’s Republic of Korea?
Your lies are like a case of limp diarrhea
Gotta say myself an Ave Maria
Wanna drown in Diego Garcia [2]

Either we’ll pay for it and it will be worth it
Or Mexico will pay for it or it will be split
Or we quit Obamacare [3], that’s a base hit
Any way we do it it will be lit

[1] https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/
[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Garcia?scrlybrkr=0692e020
[3] https://reason.com/blog/2016/12/16/obamacares-subsidies-to-cost-taxpayers-a



Published:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rMvaFul734 - play on replay if you wish. I'd suggest to. :)
 
Dum Diggity, Um, didn't he just spit it weak?
I don't know, y'know? I don't see this vividly,
I just speak what's writ for me, Tweedle Dumb,
Donald J. T... Wait, there's a debate, oh Jeez,
'UGE WALL, TWEEDLE DEE, 
Wall be finer than the one in China, I'm a wise man call me Socrates,
I Appease Athenians, Sacrifice Spartan minios, OKAY PRO you Played hoe (Plato) get on ya knees...

Start begging YEAH BEGGING, will not marry you; no wedding,
I'm too busy embezzling, the next minute you step in this ring I'll fuck you up hard; no bedding,
Scream and shout? Spreading doubt? Misbehave, ref throws you out,
I rigged the rigging, done-did my bidding, bitch kiss my ring and gimme head down south,
Flow so liquid with the rhythm, now who in the fuck you kidding with telling me Obamacare's quitting was a hit on anybody but the poor and in addition their pet kittens and their children,
I don't admit to bein' a villain but the money to build this wall's disappearin' I mean it was there, I swear, I promise but the profit turn upside-down and killed itself by crumbling its ceiling...

It's just not worth it, you understand, yes? 8 out of 11.1 million illegal aliens payin' taxes,
Who in the hell would understand Individual Taxpayer Identification Number? Ignorance is bliss when you're deceiving the masses,
OH THEY'RE RAPISTS, THIEVES BAAAA BAAA SHEEP... All lies; these ali-ens be our farmers,
They're not taking, they're creating jobs, these folk aint here to harm us,
But it doesn't matter how infallible your arguments are, you may as well be Marxists,
'Cause all I gotta do is call 'em animals and these cannibals grab their guns and hand their minds over like 'please disarm us'...
Round 3
Published:
Who cares if they paying taxes if they don’t got citizenship?
If we stopped Obamacare they wouldn’t have to pay a tortilla chip
They are takin jobs from the people who were born here
Not including William Shakespeare
I’ll commandeer and they’ll disappear
I can’t endear

Who cares what Manafort did he’s not the government
Who cares what broken covenants
He made while on the campaign trail
Its not a coffin nail
Why should it impale and entail
A certain man’s emails
Oh while were talking about emails
What about Hillary oh she pulled a turn tail

Obamacare ain’t even helpin the poor
It just pilin up the sums they can’t ignore
Because of the democratic party’s delusions of grandeur
Yes they are takin jobs from american citizens
Teenagers can’t work summer jobs because of them
They’re innocent not carcinogens not militants

Published:

This rap I am not Donald Trump, I am Clinton. This time my opponent is being referred to as Trump (second-person references are me talking to Trump/my opponent).

Who cares if they paying taxes if they don’t got citizenship?
8 out of 1-1-point-1 funded the very Government calling them shit,
If we stopped Obamacare they wouldn’t have to pay a tortilla chip
Of course not, they'd be left unable to fix a single limb or organ get the picture? They'd be sick, having funded a regime that kicks out those needing it most, with cancer or epileptic fits.
They are takin jobs from the people who were born here
And creatin' more here, opening business, upholding farms, how can I make myself more clear?
You're bastardising the needy, worshipping rich you should abhor and would if you had been born poor, dear,
I’ll commandeer and they’ll disappear
You'll wreck the Fed, proceed to spread the fear, grab the wheel and steer the nation's abomination none other than you it makes my blue eyes tear.


Who cares what Manafort did he’s not the government
Who cares what broken covenants
Who cares what you put this country through, who cares what immigrant under went,
In all departments 'cept space-science, you're unaware you've under-spent,
Oh while were talking about emails
What about Hillary oh she pulled a turn tail
Boy, you can play corruption like me but watch as what hurl fails,
I got a vagina, but like China Imma make you fear me, turn pale,
You spread shit 'bout immigrants, coverin' up your grandpa's dirt-trail,
Descendant of immigrants 2-generations back and that is not your worst tale,
You're queasy from the ease we smear-campaign you, think your campaign run was close to mine? You're miles behind; I'll put you in the dirt, snail.


Obamacare ain’t even helpin the poor
It just pilin up the sums they can’t ignore
Single-payer's the solution, yawn, snore; you're a bore,
Haven't you realised me and Bernie came up with this shit long before?
Yes they are takin jobs from american citizens
Teenagers can’t work summer jobs because of them
They’re innocent not carcinogens not militants
It's funny how you worded it, 'they' could mean the immigrants,
That would be a Biblical-tier 'dmission of your ignorance,
So remind me again where the funding is at?
What's an idea that can't work? Too ugly and fat.
Round 4
Published:
Yeh you keep using the 8 out of 11.1 figure
But the short story is that I’m getting sicker
They’re still illegal, that’s the problem, mister
Why don’t you reconfigure its bitter

If they’d be unable to fix their arm or leg
I think they would beg
To go back to Mexico
This issue ain’t a powder keg

What don’t you get? who cares
If they making farms, it’s NOT FAIR
Americans ain’t getting their share
So say a prayer

What the h*ll does the space force have to do with the wall?
Is you brain okay mister, or do you wanna brawl
Boy the russians are up there doin sh*t we cant see
Do you want the Reds to invade or do you wanna stay free?

If single payers the solution why wasn’t that the case a long time ago
Instead you democrats have been running to and fro
So how about this plan, lo and behold
PRIVATIZE the companies, it’s just a stone’s throw

Yeah my grandpa may be illegal but it was a bad time then
We didn’t have a government, yeah we didnt have the feds
But then we made a country and laws and all that crap
And now immigrants come in LEGALLY, so let me recap

It’s turning into a feud
But you point of view is skewed
So I conclude
You delude
Your brain is screwed

Published:
Check first few in the Comments section for corrections that matter.

I waive this Round as per debate structure.

Added:
--> @Pinkfreud08
Thanks :)
Contender
#26
Added:
really good video about the topic at hand
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#25
Added:
--> @RationalMadman
My bad, I fixed it.
#24
Added:
--> @Pinkfreud08
Removing your vote to fix vote.
#23
Added:
--> @Virtuoso, @bsh1
Pink freus voted against the side he meant to vote for.
Contender
#22
Added:
--> @Pinkfreud08
You votebombed double not against it
Contender
#21
Added:
--> @Our_Boat_is_Right
*******************************************************************
>Reported Vote: Our_Boat_is_Right // Mod action: Not Removed
>Points Awarded: 2 points to Con for sources
>Reason for Mod Action: Troll debates are not moderated, per the site voting policy guidelines. No moderation action is appropriate on this vote.
************************************************************************
#20
Added:
--> @TheRealNihilist
*******************************************************************
>Reported Vote: Omar2345 // Mod action: Not Removed
>Points Awarded: 3 points to Con for arguments
>Reason for Mod Action: Troll debates are not moderated, per the site voting policy guidelines. No moderation action is appropriate on this vote.
************************************************************************
#19
Added:
--> @RationalMadman, @nmvarco
wait did i miss something where it said "rap battle" it got me completely off-guard lolol
#18
Added:
--> @Alec
To earth, maybe.
#17
Added:
"'Cause I'm living proof, and so are all of my kind that illegal immigration is a nightmare to which we are blind," Is RM an illegal immigrant?
#16
Added:
--> @Alec
*******************************************************************
>Reported Vote: Alec // Mod action: Removed
>Points Awarded: Tie
>RFD: Good arguing on both sides..
>Reason for Mod Action: To award a tie the voter needs to analyze the debate and explain why it should be a tie.
***********************************************************************
#15
Added:
--> @Muffins
Truth!
#14
Added:
"My rap is inferior." That's like admitting defeat. Have some confidence!! D:
#13
Added:
I might have to place a vote on this.
#12
#5
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
Countering Our_Boat_is_Rights vote since he doesn't fully explain how these sites are " conspiracy theorist sites"
Until Our_Boat_is_Right properly explains his vote, my CVB will stand.
#4
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
Con used known conspiracy theorist websites such as the NY Times, USA Today, and the guardian. Pro used RELIABLE sources such as factcheck.org and reason.com.
#3
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
Favourite line "What are the benefits of wasting money on the wall you may ask? Zero, it's just not worth it end of story, kiss my ass."
Since it is a rap battle I will based it on what I liked the most. I liked the contenders the most.
#2
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
For the record, I hold a Bachelor of Art's Degree in Homeland Security, and immigration enforcement / border security is one of my favorite topics. So, suffice to say, I was looking forward to this debate. I didn't realize it was going to turn into a rap battle, and that certainly put an interesting spin on a debate I've seen many times before, but also makes it a lot more difficult to evaluate the specific "arguments" used here. A lot of what was said (about issues like Obamacare or Trump) were also off-topic and largely irrelevant.
Pro offered very few arguments, which was particularly disappointing because I personally know many arguments which could have been used in this debate and never saw the light of day. Pro's main points were the number of illegal immigrants in our country (which he provided a source to support) and the fact that these illegal immigrants were taking jobs from legal citizens. Although a valid point on immigration enforcement in general, these arguments didn't really support why a wall should be built, since a wall won't do anything to address the immigrants who are already here or their economic impact. Pro also brought up Obamacare, which was off-topic and irrelevant (particularly since the individual mandate has been eliminated).
Con provided a rebuttal of Pro's argument about illegal immigrants taking jobs by citing an article which claims that illegal immigrants bring a net benefit to the economy that creates more jobs. Con also provided a key argument against the construction of the wall by citing the expense of building it and inferring that Trump would fail in his promise to make Mexico pay for it. Con also peppered his opponent with many off-topic arguments, such as the claim that Trump colludes with Russia and gay adoptions...? Pro's only rebuttal that I saw was that we should pay for the wall anyway because it would be worth it.
On the arguments, I have to award points to Con. Pro's initial argument was weak and Con's rebuttal was more than sufficient to topple it. Most other arguments were off-topic and irrelevant.
On sources, I also award points to Con. Con used sources for almost all of his main arguments, including both the on-topic ones (such as the cost of the wall) and off-topic ones (such as slim shady). Pro used only three sources in one round, no sources in any of the other rounds and of the sources he did provide, only one source pertained to his main argument (about the number of illegal immigrants). Con used more sources and used them more effectively.
As a recommendation to Pro, make sure you hit me up for some suggestions before the next time you debate immigration enforcement issues. I can recommend a LOT of extra sources and arguments. Just saying "they took our jobs" is too generic and will resort in the outcome you saw here, where your opponent dragged you off-topic with a lot of general bickering about Trump.
#1
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
Conduct: it’s a rap battle, both sides name called. It’s fine - geez! Tied
Spelling and grammar: no problems on either side in the context of the rap battle.
I did very much find Con harder to follow than pro - I honestly don’t care for cons style - inline links and long lines made it harder to scan as a rap, but it’s style only and didn’t substantially affect readability.
What I did have a problem with, wasn’t readability, but that I just didn’t understand the relevant of some parts. But that’s accounted for in arguments.
I did prefer pros more simple style, but did find that con had a more complex and well thought out flow and rhyming structure - but that is just for bragging rights - not for the score!
Arguments:
While not explicitly stated, the structure implies shared BoP. I haven’t touched upon everything, a lot of items were raised that I felt were not relevant (manafort, Hilary Clinton, extra details trump lies, talk of trade), and I have mostly ignored them to summarize everything I felt was relevant only:
Con: R1 cons starts with the argument is that it’s going to be expensive, and it’s not true that Mexico will pay for it (This was a campaign lie). There seemed to be other arguments there related to trade - I honestly couldn’t follow the train of thought for these, nor were really sure how they fit the contention so cannot include them I think it was fitting into the general theme that Trump was a liar, but was mostly stumped.
R2: Pro talks about illegal immigration - but does not explain what effects are bad enough to warrant building a wall, nor how he feels building a wall would address them. He attempts to refute con on cost by mentioning the cost can be offset by repealing Obamacare - or getting Mexico to pay.
Con points out in this round that immigrants pay taxes - this provides an argument that illegal immigration provides some benefit to the government in taxes - so they are not as much of a net drain. Con also adds they support the economy, and information about criminality has been overblown.
R3: Pro argues immigrants are taking our jobs. This is his only argument relevant to the contention in this round. He implied again - without sourcing - that Obamacare would pay for it.
Con attacks the job argument - pointing out they create jobs and giving farmers access to labor they wouldn’t otherwise get - he also points out Obamacare has a net benefit - so should be left alone.
I felt that con didn’t really address that immigrants are taking teens jobs at the end of this round - I couldn’t figure out what he meant (I’m sorry), but do feel that his earlier argument (farmers and that their work creates jobs) also has relevance.
R4: pros only relevant argument in support is related to R3 - claiming as a result of immigrants Americans aren’t getting their share. He doesn’t not provide any positive justification for this.
As pro does not provide any causal argument, or any sources to support the specific claims above, his argument in support of a wall is incredibly weak.
Weighing all of this, I felt that Pro didn’t really provide a substantive argument here, mainly relying on generalities: “they are taking our jobs”, and didn’t offer a firm positive case for how the wall would help.
I felt that con threw doubt on the overall claims of pro relating to “taking our jobs”, by stressing the overall benefi - though didn’t land an absolutely knock outt. Con doesn’t quantify the benefit - which is the key problem I find with his position - but erodes pros case.
Cons argument that the wall is expensive and we can’t afford it was well argued - and wasn’t refuted by pro at all. Pro made an attempt using Obamacare, but I felt this was batted away by pro.
I would have liked to see more quantitive analysis here: if that had happened I may have awarded arguments differently. However, with the above, I felt both cons initial argument, and rebuttal was stronger and more concrete than pros - so arguments to con.
Sources: Pro offered no real relevant sources to support key claims, other than volume of immigrants - but as the sources don’t bolster the negative implications he argues - these don’t help his argument much. Con used lots of sources, most of which were not directly relevant in the same way (they are good at pointing out facts or events - but most don’t give the knockout). However: in the volume of sources a couple of key sources pop out: the costing of the wall (the telegraph link),
The taxpayer implication, the farmers link, and that they are creating jobs: takes the core claims of an arguments and throws a concrete foundation under them.
Such arguments with little argument can be challenged or batted away, but with sources, pro has to go to much more detail to refute the point: which he did not do. As cons sources laid a solid foundation (but for the love of god don’t use so many), I have to give sources to con.