Instigator / Pro
3
1473
rating
4
debates
0.0%
won
Topic
#3295

The Black Pill Is True

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
3
Better sources
2
2
Better legibility
1
1
Better conduct
0
1

After 1 vote and with 4 points ahead, the winner is...

Benjamin
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Two days
Max argument characters
8,000
Voting period
One month
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
7
1777
rating
79
debates
76.58%
won
Description

black pill: The "black pill" generally refers to a set of commonly held beliefs in incel communities, which include biological determinism, fatalism, and defeatism for unattractive people. Believers are referred to as being "blackpilled". Those who believe the blackpill believe sexual and romantic attraction is almost purely decided by ones looks and genetic features, they also believe ones looks are extremely important in terms of career and how people treat you. I will be defending this ideology.

Rules: none, just be open to learning on both sides.

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@Intelligence_06

"Well, I think then, the black pill should be determinism, but not defeatism. According to what I think of your definition, "Ugly people do have it harder than handsome people" is black-pill."

Not really. The emphasis you are hearing might not quite be what I am trying to put out there it's not just moderately harder. Go Google the elephant man.

Seriously look at an image of him. Is that somebody who should be wasting his short life trying to find love or get pussy? Or would he be better off acknowledging that women are human and care about looks, and acknowledging he will always be ugly and instead living his life to the fullest.

You can say things like defeatist or determinism, but I'm going to tell you defeatist and determinism is the same thing. They both mean you become resigned to your fate.

"making peace with oneself instead of striving hard for unrealistic goals. Is that perhaps really the black pill is? If so, did a perfectly good idea get twisted by incels?"

It hasn't been twisted by incels. This is what they believe. Your ideal of incel has probably come from watching videos about then or reading commentary on them. Maybe you think that since elliot rodger was inspired by their ideology that he was incel. However, why Don't you actually talk to an incel. Maybe hear straight from the horses mouth what they believe?

I know it's easy to shit on incels. The media shits on them, people not studying their ideology but explaining it to others shits on them, hell even life shits on incels. They aren't this caricature created by the media though. I can probably get you contact details for some, but people are literally hating on these guys, for claiming that they are ugly and unfuckable.

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@Intelligence_06

"Then, is "I am a failure at life because I am ugly and it will not get better" a black-pill statement or am I wrong about it all along?"

Perhaps that is a blackpill statement. I think you miss the point a bit. I'll explain the terminology a but better, because black pill stands in contrast to the other ideologies of the manosphere. These are ideogies specific to the sexual market place it should be noted.

Blue pill = just be yourself and you'll find the right girl eventually.

Redpill= lift, make money and show confidence to get women.

Purple pill= the redpill is true but threatens western values, and institutions of monogamy.

Black pill= women care about looks more than what society thinks, and being ugly, short or just awkward means that you won't likely find somebody to love you. They differ from the typical redpill thinker, by not believing that money, Confidence or game will be enough to overcome their ugliness.

I think you have a hidden premise here, you are failing to acknowledge. You think it would somehow make somebody some sort of loser to think it's not worth the effort to pursue relationships, because they are ugly and their options are very limited. I hazard to guess, you probably think this because a part of you puts the pussy on a pedestal.

It's okay to be single or ugly and you can live a very fruitful life as an ugly person and die happy.

This notion that you have to think of yourself as good looking or having a winning personality, to feel good about yourself is wrong.

I don't know why society is painting incels as hating women. They are literally just stating that women care about looks and prioritize it more than society would have you believe.

I can acknowledge a lot of truth in that statement. I have had it easy with women, because of my looks. People want to say incels are incelibate merely because of shyness or not trying, but I am literally a person who has never had to pursue sex with women and slept with a lot of the. I am very very reserved and yet women approach me.

For good looking guys, we don't have to actually try at all. There are average looking guys that probably need a moderate amount of effort to sleep with women. Incels on the other hand, are so ugly they might have to dedicate their lives to it, and even when they manage to get one, they'll likely be a terrible partner, as even ugly women have no problem getting into relationships with average looking guys. So an ugly one available to incels will probably also be some sort of crazy and that is after the incel has been rejected by 1000 ugly women, in their pursuit of love.

This doesn't make women bad. It doesn't mean incels hate them. It just means that the one in a million chance they find love is probably wasted effort when they can be doing productive things with their time like learning a new language, or skill. Going to school for medicine etc. This is a similar thing to MGTOWs who just want to stay single, but with frequent sex.

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@Wylted

Well, I think then, the black pill should be determinism, but not defeatism. According to what I think of your definition, "Ugly people do have it harder than handsome people" is black-pill.

Then, is "I am a failure at life because I am ugly and it will not get better" a black-pill statement or am I wrong about it all along?

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@Wylted

Well, from #64, even Newton is a "celibate". However, well, incels would not be such rational behavior of even being an ordinary enjoyable person, and if so, the black pill should change definitions, for example, making peace with oneself instead of striving hard for unrealistic goals. Is that perhaps really the black pill is? If so, did a perfectly good idea get twisted by incels?

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@Intelligence_06

"Even people without arms can still run and swim and play the drums. Why is it good that people just not try when they clearly can?"

Probably because the reward is not worth the effort. If said unarmed person thinks the effort is worth the reward, than fine they should pursue that. However they should probably take the black pill and realize, they'll have a harder time than others

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@Intelligence_06

"As a student I will no longer study since I think calculus and microeconomics are way too hard and I will make peace with my grade anyways."

I think it's more relevant to say something like.

"Math is harder for me than the average person, and I will take the black pill to accept that. I will study harder with this realization and find creative ways to learn that my more talented class mates wouldn't need to do"

In black pill terminology it might be a thought such as

"I acknowledge that I look like the elephant man and can not very easily get pussy. Actually it will take considerable work to find a pussy to put my dick in"

Once the realization is made, then it is up to the incel to decide whether gaining gaining LTR with a woman they are attracted to is worth all the effort or not. If it is worth the effort than than the incel will do what's called "looks maxing ". It can involve dressing well, wearing lift shoes, mewing and getting their teeth fixed.

If they decide it isn't worth the effort than the result is likely to lead to them, realizing they are enough and living their best life as a celibate single person.

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@Wylted

Even people without arms can still run and swim and play the drums. Why is it good that people just not try when they clearly can?

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@Wylted

As a student I will no longer study since I think calculus and microeconomics are way too hard and I will make peace with my grade anyways.

Unless the descriptions are misleading, this is the equivalence to the black pill.

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@Intelligence_06

"Well, incels could work towards transforming themselves, working out or hustling or being a good guy in general. They would be much better than those who lock themselves in grievance caused by the "black pill"."

Why do you think the black pill means grievance or batching or moaning? It just means resigning yourself to your fate, which can be a positive thing that helps you focus on what you can control.

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@Intelligence_06

"you are someone who used a flat earth conspiracy site in a debate, which is in no way credible, so how are we gonna trust you?"

I really wish they had an IQ test for this site. What thing did I say, that requires trust?

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@Exanimaa

To be fair, acknowledging that black people are currently being treated worse than white people generally in the US is rational. Stating, as a black man, that black people are bound to be have it worse than white people in forever long time, that is just unhealthy. These people will be frowned upon while civil right activists aiming to change the face of black people in the society are seen as heroes.

Well, incels could work towards transforming themselves, working out or hustling or being a good guy in general. They would be much better than those who lock themselves in grievance caused by the "black pill".

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@Wylted

Using the N word to anyone is either rude or plain wrong. Plus, you are someone who used a flat earth conspiracy site in a debate, which is in no way credible, so how are we gonna trust you?

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@Exanimaa

Bro, use citations. You brought up a lot of facts, cite them nigga.

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@Benjamin

Dude, why did you take that stupid tactic with this debate. The alternative theory to the black pill is that ugly dudes can find love, if they put in work to look their best, become successful and respect themselves. Your response was some stupid shit like

"Well some ugly people get lucky, so I guess it's untrue" also your first paragraph in round one is basically big fuck you to pro, because you try to take the topic off course

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@RationalMadman

yeah, they have high suicide rates. That's not wholly because of the blackpill though, i imagine it plays into it however.

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@Exanimaa

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/11/05/south-korea-suicide-rates-mental-illness-squid-game/
https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2021/07/119_312404.html

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@RationalMadman

Just look at south korean men, they're all very blackpilled. They realise how much their looks matter, in korea you even have to put a picture of your face on your job applications, at least you used too.

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@RationalMadman

Your concerns are correct, it is a dangerous ideology. Its very nihilistic, it is however, true. Women recognise this truth and they take it in their stride, i think pretending your looks dont matter if your a man is the cause of all this destruction, yet if people were honest, that they do matter then we would know what to expect and be able to adjust to it, just as women do.

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@RationalMadman

You should be upset about any unfairness in life, actually. We don't like unequal pay. That's not to say we should be enraged by it. I see nothing wrong with recognising the blackpill as true, if you are a very mentally and emotionally developed person. Almost all women are blackpilled for instance, they recognise their looks are vital. We dont see them shooting up schools, a big part of this is because men are told our looks dont matter.

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@Exanimaa

There is a difference between:

Life is 100% unfair and all those fucked over by it should feel rage and bitter resentment

and

Life is let's say 65% unfair even, within the 35% is still stuff you can't really help as you're only human and have limitations with how much of a situation you knew you could take advantage of vs what you did and how strategic and tactical you are.

The former mentality is black pill and incel mentality and leads to very bad mindsets in life that are either suicidal, homicidal or at the very least abusive. All such people need therapy or at least need to realise they are somehow wrong.

The latter mentality, which I'd say I have, is much more 'fuck it, let's use that 35% as best as we can and just roll with it'.

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@RationalMadman

Ok, well there we go. You said the blackpill wasn't true, we now agree it is. When i opened the debate my main intent for the debate was to argue looks are more important than personality when it comes to dating, although i probably assumed too much knowledge. so it took a different turn than i was expecting.

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@RationalMadman

To rationalise that these men who go on these killings sprees are just lunatics, is a negation of their environment, it doesnt solve the problem of how to stop this. Being willfully ignorant about it isnt going to make it go away. I agree they're full of hatred, they're sexists. This is not good, yet we must look at the things which make them this way objectively.

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@Exanimaa

Some people are born with more advantages than others, life isn't fair, am I supposed to disagree with that? You seem to be strawmanning the Con side of this debate if you think that it is completely denying that life is unfair.

Genes are part of why it's unfair, you're not wrong. We are not all clones and don't all have as wealthy or as loving families.

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@RationalMadman

You havent proved the blackpill wrong, all you've done is shown me links to studies showing a link between academic performance and wealth. Thats obvious.

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@RationalMadman

The fact rich people have it the easiest is not a negation of the black pill. I wouldn't deny that, growing up with a two parent household and being at least middle class are the biggest determiners of success. Yet your looks still matter, especially if you want to escape poverty, only one look at tiktok shows the vanity of people.

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@Exanimaa

Oh I'm sure, the researchers tell you that if you are not getting laid and feel hard done by genes and life to act like this (this post is sarcasm):

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/14/uk/plymouth-shooting-incel-jake-davison-profile-intl/index.html
https://www.npr.org/2021/07/22/1019089834/police-foiled-an-ohio-incels-plot-to-kill-women-in-a-mass-shooting-prosecutors-s

Please stop denying that it is just about rage and deep seething hatred.

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@RationalMadman

Reverse causation? these studies get peer reviewed studied by sociologists, all kinds of researchers, any complaints you think of im sure they have thought of themselves and discussed it. I don't believe your reverse triangle, the researchers dont, so i dont.

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@Exanimaa

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1olaz9/were_rich_class_people_taller_than_commoners/

It's also nutrition from childhood and general habits of how one carries themselves that the parents do/don't correct.

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@RationalMadman

More men are becoming increasingly lonely, this is objectively true. More men are going without wives, lovers. Not that im an incel myself, im not. I do however see where the movement has came from this psychology if we look at the data.

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@Exanimaa

I think the first data to show you is that wealth matters more than talent, if we talk trends. Again refer to 2-posts-ago from me for deeper explanation:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/ct-life-born-rich-vs-talented-20181010-story.html
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6261249/Children-wealthy-parents-successful-gifted-kids-born-low-income-families.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/money-academic-success-us-college-intelligence-born-rich-genomics-new-york-university-a8585821.html

HOWEVER you seem to want proof of a link between being wealthy now and DNA that makes you more likely to have traits that can be used to your advantage, not only due to the wealth, that comes here:

https://qz.com/1292691/researchers-have-identified-a-link-between-genetics-and-wealth-inequality/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5934673/Being-rich-successful-really-genes-study-suggests.html

the problem is that many sources I can use here can be twisted by you to support the reverse-causation type thing.

https://guardian.ng/features/being-rich-and-successful-is-in-your-dna/
Like this ^

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@RationalMadman

That's true. We must check our biases and sadly trends show people have a bias towards tall men as leaders. This is why education on this is important, this is why inceldom has skyrocketed recently and we see men shooting up schools over it. We didnt see this 30 years ago, yet if you look at my round 1 argument, the stastics since 2008 make everything clear, it shows where this movement has come from.

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@Exanimaa

If you specifically mean politics as in the electable 'face' types, people do indeed have a habit of associating height with 'I wanna vote that dude', not people like you and myself perhaps but people who aren't very critical thinkers and vote on impulse.

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@RationalMadman

You're literally arguing rich people are bigger, stronger and smarter than non rich people on average genetically. This is really incorrect, wealth within a family usually only lasts for two generations before it is lost.

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@RationalMadman

We can just look to politicians who didnt grow up in political familes, such as joe biden. Hes a farm boy! hes still 6 foot though, hes now 5'11 from age.

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@RationalMadman

Give me data showing that rich people are taller not because of a privileged upbringing but because of genetics.

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@RationalMadman

"In the last one hundred years in US history the tallest presidential candidates received more popular votes in 88% of the elections, and won 84% of the time."

You're literally just assuming all of this, you have no data to support the idea that people born richer are genetically more prone to being taller. Literally just 200 years ago the average dutch male was 5'4, you're making this up off the top of your head as you go on as it sounds right.

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@Exanimaa

What you don't get is this.

In the past, the wealthy could mate with taller and 'sexier' people and over time, the smarter could as well depending on their people-skills as all kinds of competition happened.

This means that the DNA of people who happen to be born wealthier often is also more likely to be people who are taller but in terms of attractiveness it's not a guarantee as such for sure (because rich men who are ugly can easily date gold-digger types and I say that without resentment, finding love is another matter).

Let me put it a different way to you, it is very unlikely that someone born into an already successful family is themselves BOTH ugly, unintelligent, physically weak AND emotionally unstable. If they are all 4, they're in the minority of the wealthy, not the norm. Yes, I would consider Donald Trump an anomaly but he's not super weak physically, just overall poor in the other areas and selectively lazy if he feels he can get away with it.

In general, you will find that due to this trend, your relationship ends up true (but backwards as to why) due to the things I explained in the previous post.

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@RationalMadman

You cannot deny the facts, the empirical data. your philosophical inquiries have nothing on the data. Once we get to the realm of scientific data, i don't care for philosophy anymore, im not going to need equally strong evidence in data to change my opinion, this is not the case in something like meta-ethics, philosophy wont change my mind.

Folk wisdom about U.S. presidential politics holds that the taller of the two major-party candidates always wins or almost always wins since the advent of the televised presidential debate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heights_of_presidents_and_presidential_candidates_of_the_United_States
literally just look at this shit and tell me you seriously think height only matters in dating. Why are tall men so overrepresented in the white house? why are they so overrepresented in CEO positions?

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@RationalMadman

Trump would not of become president if he was 5'4.

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@RationalMadman

And yes, your race also matters as i pointed out in the debate, its going to be objectively harder being a 5'4 indian man as opposed to a 5'4 white man.

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@RationalMadman

I doubt you would be disagreeing with me at all, if i switched nothing but changed it from looks but to race.

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@RationalMadman

It goes beyond charming people, it goes into how people perceive you too. Why are almost no US presidents in US history below 6 feet tall? Life is going to be a uphill battle not just in dating but in school and the workplace too for shorter and uglier people.

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@Exanimaa

can I be clear on something...

Is your claim that shorter men and less attractive people have a harder time charming people in their life, as a trend?

I'd agree to that and nothing more that you're suggesting.

Why dont we talk about the suicide rate of short men? whats the reason for that, whats the reason for the higher substance abuse and less money, even when all known factors are controlled for, this is why they say "genetically determined height" not just height. Rules out nutrition and environment factors.

If you want to argue ugliness and how "subjective" it is, why dont you talk about the studies i provided on height, since how tall someone isnt subjective.

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@RationalMadman

You appear to be brainstorming about human origins from the top of your head, making assumption after assumption based on your knowledge of human history thus far. I've not been tricked into anything. I'm simply looking at the data unbiasedly and coming to conclusions as I do with everything else. I'm not an emotional thinker. I have no reason to believe anything of what you just said over the studies I've read, as they're currently the better evidence. They said they accounted for all known variables. I have to take them at their word until better evidence comes out to the contrary. Girls desire hot men, yet they were forced to be with the guy with the most power in the past. Yet they want the hot guy sexually. Human history is naturally hypergamous. Your argument only stands by the fact that men literally oppressed women so that they wouldn't be hypergamous with the same men. Then your other arguments on nutrition, growing up, etc., the studies talk about and account for. That's why they say "genetically" determined height, not simply height.

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@Exanimaa

We are continuing from here: https://www.debateart.com/debates/3291/comment-links/40371

I am now going to reveal the crucial way your thinking has tricked you into incel propaganda and where the correlation starts to fall short.

Firstly, notice how you repeatedly order your relationships between data in the comments in that debate vs me you suddenly said this:

"There is a correlation between being ugly and having an averagely lower income. The statistics I used take into account a person's starting socio-economic starting place, their education, etc. especially on the suicide rates for shorter men in Sweden."

Okay, now try and first reverse it and word it like this:

There is a correlation between being having an averagely lower income and ending up less attractive. The statistics I used take into account a person's starting socio-economic starting place, their education, etc.

Suddenly, your brain can SEE another path by which the relationship is drawn (this isn't an insult, I am trying to show you how involuntary confirmation bias is plaguing your entire Rounds of this 'black pill' debate and how people get sucked into a deep bitterness over things they don't need to hate).

So, first let's concede a little bit, played over many generations of the past, the wealthier and more physically built males were able to get physically attractive females and so over time at least for the females your correlation probably has truth to it. The past was sexist, there's not really any debating that while we evolved as a species that power and status as well as strength landed you hotter babes that other men would want back then it honestly overall was that way and the women sought a protector more than a hot guy, which begins to really reverse the dynamic of 'black pill' by suggesting males led to this.

Secondly, consider that throughout a poor person's life, they get less access to good nutrition growing up, much more stress (while studying at 16 they're already seeking physically demanding parttime employment just to make ends meet for their family and barely can study at home, needing to almost always share a room with someone else). So, combine the malnourishment with stress as well as total lack of money to go to good gyms, good health physicians, good (or better than good) psychiatrists etc... Suddenly the etc backfires on YOU and it starts to make sense that not only that adds up but AGAIN, if you reverse the evolutionary clock and combine it with the nutrition and stress, that taller, stronger adults happen to be correlated with higher income households.

You're only looking at the end-result, that they ended up richer but most rich people were born richer... Just how it works. So, start to think sociologically rather than purely biologically and a lot more starts to play into it.

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@Exanimaa

Each to their own devices, jah.
And likely some pursuits more likely to bear fruit, than others.

statistics absolutely do matter if you're in the bottom 20% of men, statistically speaking we have 2x more female ancestors than male ones because the top men would have multiple women at one time. Half of all men failed to reproduce while most females didnt. This hypergamy remains true in the modern day.