Instigator / Pro
8
1597
rating
22
debates
65.91%
won
Topic
#3426

THBT: SOCIETY would be BETTER OFF if LGBTQ people did not EXIST

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
6
Better sources
4
4
Better legibility
2
2
Better conduct
2
2

After 2 votes and with 6 points ahead, the winner is...

RationalMadman
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Three days
Max argument characters
8,000
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
14
1697
rating
556
debates
68.17%
won
Description

THBT: On balance, SOCIETY would be BETTER OFF if LGBTQ people did not EXIST

DEFINITIONS

Society: the aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community.

Better off: In a more desirable or advantageous position

LGBTQ: People who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, or queer

Exist: have objective reality or being.

All terms should be used in their commonplace understandings

THE DEBATE

~~BOP is shared~~
PRO: Must uphold the resolution and make an argument as to why society would be better off if LGBTQ people did not exist

CON: Shares the burden. CON must provide evidence as to why the resolution is false and prove why society would not be better off, or even (but not required) worse off.

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@RationalMadman
@Nyxified
@Novice

**************************************************
>Reported Vote: Nyxified // Mod action: Not Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded: 3 to Con
>Reason for Decision:

See Voting Tab

>Reason for Mod Action:
The voter sufficiently explains their decision on the basis of the given arguments. The voter clearly adds a little to certain points (e.g. using the cure for cancer as a potential impact of Con's butterfly effect argument and employing the term "cishets") but the voter criticizes both sides and provides reasons why specific arguments and interpretations of the resolution determine where their vote goes.

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@Barney
@Nyxified

https://youtu.be/rY0WxgSXdEE

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@Barney
@Nyxified

Round 2 is finished.

I regret making time for arguments for 3 days.
This is an 8,000 character debate. It need not be this way.

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@RationalMadman

I will save my detailed opinions for the voting tab, but victory or failure for you is entirely dependent on Novice's ability to play the definition's game. It's not the angle I would've come at this from, but I suppose we'll have to see how it goes.

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@Novice

Nice improvements to your setup and R1.

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@Novice

I read your 'little by little' excuse of a framework in your 'overview' if you mean that. If you think that's gonna win the votes, go ahead and push it.

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@Novice

Time will tell. It's either a big mistake or it isn't.

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@RationalMadman

Uhhh...you made a big mistake

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@Barney
@whiteflame
@Username
@Nyxified
@Bones

You may want to read this.

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@Nyxified

You couldn't ever choose that without killing the person you are. It's very simple.

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@Username

The people who don't want to examine their habits and beliefs, no matter how clearly harmful they may be and no matter how much scientific evidence against them there is, are usually the same people who like to complain at the notion that they may have an advantage over other people.

I won't get into the fetishization of hardship that is rife in American and a lot of other western culture, but I will say:

"They're lucky black people are looking for equality and not revenge."

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@RationalMadman

I'm not sure what the implication with your second paragraph is, but taking the rest in good faith, I think what you're saying is fairly heartwarming! I wouldn't say that it's due to genetics, but rather I would say it's due to a shared culture, collection of experiences, and feelings. Nevertheless, it's undeniable that I would not be the same person if I wasn't LGBTQ+; it's the reason I am today.

While I may experience a lot less hardship if I were cishet, realistically, to not be LGBTQ+ is not a decision I would make nor is it a decision I could make.

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@Nyxified

" I'd probably choose to not be LGBTQ+ if I could, but I was never really given that option."

That's a cute idea isn't it, as if the parts of your psyche and brain's wiring leading to that are independent of other parts of you.

As you know I am a genticist/determinist whatever, there are elements of us that are hardwired into us. Some people at a very young age are blatantly more brutish or timid or this and that than others and as we grow and develop and hormones and brain development occur combined with experiences, we become things that are NOT entirely unrelated at all.

Of course not all gays are feminine, that's not what I'm saying. It's about a series of habits and tendencies, there are certain personality traits in each lesbian, gay, trans person, genderfluid etc that are fairly inextricable from the rest of them. You wouldn't be you and not have your tendency towards LGBTQ. That is a fact.

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@Nyxified

"I still scoff at this debate nonetheless because, whether it's with race or sexuality or what have you, it's always the oppressing group portraying the oppressed group as an inconvenience and an annoyance that makes life harder. "

I think you hit the nail on the head here. A lot of the reason why intolerance towards minorities is so on-its-face absurd is the playing victim. Usually there's a 2000+ year history of group A oppressing group B; group B will respond in some way and then group A will act like that response just came out of thin air

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@RationalMadman

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I can't say if you're right or wrong either since we're talking hypotheticals. I do my best work with high character counts, that's for sure.

Honestly, I probably wouldn't even take this debate. The resolution envisions a hypothetical world where LGBTQ+ people didn't exist, not removing all LGBTQ+ people from existence in our world. Would that world be 'better off'? Well, probably. A lot of people would have much easier lives. I'd probably choose to not be LGBTQ+ if I could, but I was never really given that option.

Fundamentally, this debate says nothing about the real world because LGBTQ+ people do exist. I still scoff at this debate nonetheless because, whether it's with race or sexuality or what have you, it's always the oppressing group portraying the oppressed group as an inconvenience and an annoyance that makes life harder. Resolutions like this are almost always made by someone who wishes we didn't exist, and so they fantasize about a world where we don't.

This debate immediately reminds me of the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement, even if said movement would more likely argue the inverse of the resolution.

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@Nyxified

Do not take this wrong but I believe I'll do better than you would with 8k limitation on this particular topic. I know precisely where Novice will go on this topic and it's not an easy angle to tackle unless you do what I do.

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@Bones
@Novice

RMM beat me to it lmao

Maybe sometime soon.

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@Bones

I really hope they accept it.
I am very eager to debate the LGBTQ people within the site, and (hopefully) beat every single one of them

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@Nyxified

Yours.