Instigator / Pro
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1922
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Topic
#3519

THBT: Over the course of the American Civil War, US Grant's generalship proved to be superior to the generalship of RE Lee

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
6
0
Better sources
4
4
Better legibility
2
2
Better conduct
2
2

After 2 votes and with 6 points ahead, the winner is...

oromagi
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Two days
Max argument characters
10,000
Voting period
One month
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
8
1527
rating
14
debates
39.29%
won
Description

THBT: Over the course of the American Civil War, US Grant's generalship proved to be superior to the generalship of RE Lee.

DEFINITIONS:
The AMERICAN CIVIL WAR was "a civil war in the United States from 1861 to 1865, fought between the northern United States (loyal to the Union) and the southern United States (that had seceded from the Union and formed the Confederacy)."

ULYSSES S. GRANT was "an American soldier and politician who served as the 18th president of the United States from 1869 to 1877. Before his presidency, Grant led the Union Army as Commanding General of the United States Army in winning the American Civil War."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_S._Grant

ROBERT E LEE was "an American and Confederate soldier, best known as a commander of the Confederate States Army. He commanded the Army of Northern Virginia in the American Civil War from 1862 until its surrender in 1865."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee

GENERALSHIP [noun] is "the skills or performance of a good general; military leadership, strategy."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/generalship

SUPERIOR [adjective] is "higher in quality."

BURDEN of PROOF
Burden of Proof is shared.
PRO must prove that Grant was superior to Lee in military leadership.
CON must prove that Lee was superior to Grant in military leadership.

No alternative approaches are invited (i.e.' Sherman was superior to both', or 'Jackson was the only true leader of men', etc)

PRO is requesting sincere and friendly engagement on this subject.

No trolls or kritiks, please.

- RULES --
1. Forfeit=auto loss
2. Sources may be merely linked in debate as long as citations are listed in comments
3. No new args in R3
4. For all relevant terms, individuals should use commonplace understandings that fit within the rational context of this resolution and debate

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@Barney
@whiteflame

Thanks for voting!

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@Barney

Thanks for voting!

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@whiteflame

Thanks for voting!

crybaby oromagi gets a win, good for him :)

I might be able to vote on this. But first I need sleep

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@whiteflame

much appreciated

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@oromagi

Can't promise anything with such a short amount of time left, but I'll try.

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@oromagi

I won’t be able to vote on this one in time.

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@Barney
@whiteflame
@Ramshutu
@Intelligence_06

less than 24 hrs left. zero votes

two day left

please.....

ump the bump

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@Novice_II

About one week left to vote

Of course I will vote on this, as I am the only person I trust to get the decision right. I can't let someone like Barney ruin this again, and doing such when I have preventative ability is but, immoral.

two weeks left to vote!

Why is it always that the guys who are blocking me want to have more conversation after blocking me than before? Blocking just seems so impotent as an expression of one's 'bate rage. If you want to have a conversation you should unblock me and do it in QUESTIONS. I still have a lot of QUESTIONs to ask and answer to get those last gold medals.

You started berating me and winding me up months ago. Now you insult me further after voting what you think is a troll debate.

You want a war, be ready.

Lmao you want respect, learn to give it, you insolent hypocrite.

@RationalMadman

Why would any VOTE on one your debates impact your honest analysis of any other debate?

I vote for and against your arguments all the time according to their quality and the quality of your opponent. You can't honestly argue that your recent troll debate wasn't super lazy shit fully deserving of a down vote. I read this as your confession that you are a dishonest VOTER generally, which goes a long way towards explaining why you so readily assume dishonesty in your associates.

Seems fair to ask that that VOTERS should refrain from VOTING on users' debates whom they have blocked. It stands to reason that if they are blocking that user for any honest cause, then they would also avoid that user's debates for fear of unfair prejudice. I'm forced to assume that either RM's reasons for blocking me (whatever they might be) are dishonest or his reasons for choosing to VOTE now are merely expression of prejudice with no genuine respect for objectivity.

Both if you have given terrible votes against me, so I can happily vote against both. I will be voting on this.

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@RationalMadman
@Phenenas
@Novice_II

Plz vote if you have time

CON's R3 Sources

1. https://www.nps.gov/articles/industry-and-economy-during-the-civil-war.htm#:~:text=By%201860%2C%2090%20percent%20of,100%20produced%20in%20the%20South.
2. https://www.britannica.com/event/Anaconda-plan
3. https://www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum.com/the-union-blockade-of-the-southern-states.html
4. https://www.nps.gov/articles/industry-and-economy-during-the-civil-war.htm#:~:text=The%20Union's%20industrial%20and%20economic,mobilization%20of%20resources%20more%20difficult.
5. http://projects.leadr.msu.edu/usforeignrelations/exhibits/show/british-involvement-in-the-ame#:~:text=In%20order%20to%20avert%20open,use%20and%20expansion%20of%20slavery.
6. https://study.com/learn/lesson/secession-from-the-union.html#:~:text=Southern%20states%20seceded%20from%20the,rights%2C%20and%20promote%20tariff%20laws.
7. https://www.historyonthenet.com/grant-and-lees-winning-civil-war-strategy
8. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_theater_of_the_American_Civil_War
9. https://www.legendsofamerica.com/ah-easterntheater/
10. https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/robert-e-lees-decision-invade-north-september-1862
11. https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/antietam
12. https://www.wondriumdaily.com/robert-e-lee-the-greatest-confederate-general/#:~:text=Robert%20E.%20Lee's%20Strategy%20in%20War&text=And%20that%20was%20what%20he,to%20what%20the%20enemy%20did.
13. https://www.newsletter.co.uk/heritage-and-retro/heritage/icon-civil-war-just-how-great-general-was-robert-e-lee-2985375
14. https://www.history.com/topics/american-civil-war/battle-of-the-wilderness#:~:text=The%20Battle%20of%20the%20Wilderness%20ended%20inconclusively%2C%20though%20the%20Union,toll%20suffered%20by%20the%20Confederates.
15. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Donelson#Breakout_attempt_(February_15)
16. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Vicksburg#Assaults
17. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Vicksburg#Assaults
18. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Vicksburg#Siege_operations
19. https://www.grantunderfire.com/738/when-is-a-quote-on-ulysses-s-grant-insufficient-for-historical-purposes/

PRO's R3 SOURCES:

https://www.historynet.com/the-butchers-bill/
https://www.historynet.com/the-butchers-bill/
https://encyclopediavirginia.org/entries/longstreet-james-1821-1904/
https://www.historyonthenet.com/grant-and-lees-winning-civil-war-strategy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy
https://www.historyonthenet.com/general-lee
https://www.britannica.com/event/Battle-of-Antietam
https://www.mrlincolnswhitehouse.org/residents-visitors/the-generals-and-admirals/generals-admirals-ulysses-s-grant-1822-1885
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Donelson
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Vicksburg
https://mwi.usma.edu/ulysses-s-grant-command-control-multi-domain-battlespace-future/
https://ehistory.osu.edu/articles/us-grant-and-operations-0
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA603255.pdf
https://www.originalsources.com/Document.aspx?DocID=CWGLBE73DSD3WYT
https://digmichnews.cmich.edu/?a=d&d=GrandTraverseGTH18850910-01.1.4&e=-------en-10--1--txt-txIN----------

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@RationalMadman

Yeah

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@christianm

Do you want me to vote on this debate?

CON's R2 Sources

1. https://owlcation.com/humanities/Southern-Advantages-Three-Ways-the-Confederacy-had-the-Upper-Hand-in-the-Civil-War
2. https://history.state.gov/milestones/1861-1865/blockade#:~:text=President%20Abraham%20Lincoln%20sided%20with,all%20the%20major%20southern%20ports.
3. https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/total-war-civil-wars-effect-home-front#:~:text=The%20American%20Civil%20War%20has,in%20which%20soldiers%20remained%20widely
4. https://www.english.uga.edu/sites/default/files/2009-2010_Barnett_Mays_John.pdf
5. https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/north-and-south
6. https://www.ushistory.org/us/33b.asp#:~:text=The%20South%20could%20produce%20all,proved%20to%20be%20very%20resourceful.
6 again (accidentally wrote same number twice). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_soldiers_in_the_American_Civil_War
7. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gettysburg
8. https://towardsdatascience.com/napoleon-was-the-best-general-ever-and-the-math-proves-it-86efed303eeb
9. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/which-general-was-better-ulysses-s-grant-or-robert-e-lee-180952005/
10. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_S._Grant_and_the_American_Civil_War#Battles_of_Belmont,_Fort_Henry,_and_Fort_Donelson
11. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_S._Grant_and_the_American_Civil_War#Battles_of_Belmont,_Fort_Henry,_and_Fort_Donelson
12. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gettysburg
13. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Vicksburg
14. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaconda_Plan
15. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_S._Grant_and_the_American_Civil_War#The_Battle_of_Vicksburg
16. https://www.history.com/topics/american-civil-war/vicksburg-campaign#:~:text=Grant%20made%20some%20attacks%20after,with%2070%2C000%20troops%2C%20captured%20Vicksburg.
17. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jackson,_Mississippi
18. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_S._Grant_and_the_American_Civil_War#Chattanooga
19. https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/lincolns-unsent-letter-george-meade
20. https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/napoleon-invades-russia
21. https://www.wondriumdaily.com/robert-e-lee-the-greatest-confederate-general/#:~:text=Robert%20E.%20Lee's%20Strategy%20in%20War&text=And%20that%20was%20what%20he,to%20what%20the%20enemy%20did.

PRO's R2 SOURCES

https://owlcation.com/humanities/Southern-Advantages-Three-Ways-the-Confederacy-had-the-Upper-Hand-in-the-Civil-War
https://www.ushistory.org/us/33b.asp#:~:text=The%20South%20could%20produce%20all,proved%20to%20be%20very%20resourceful.
https://towardsdatascience.com/napoleon-was-the-best-general-ever-and-the-math-proves-it-86efed303eeb
http://npshistory.com/series/symposia/gettysburg_seminars/16/essay2.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_S._Grant_and_the_American_Civil_War
https://www.acwrt.org.uk/post/gettysburg-day-3-areconsideration
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_S._Grant_and_the_American_Civil_War

CON's R1 Sources:

1. https://www.coreknowledge.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/CKHG-G5-U11-about-advantages-and-disadvantages.pdf
2. https://www.nps.gov/civilwar/facts.htm#:~:text=In%20July%201861%2C%20the%20two,January%201863%20totaled%20over%20600%2C000.
3. https://ethanarsht.github.io/military_rankings/
4. https://americanhistory.si.edu/lincoln/lincolns-generals
5. https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/ulysses-s-grant-s-path-to-victory-the-1864-overland-campaign.htm
6. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gettysburg
7. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War#Union_blockade
8. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/which-general-was-better-ulysses-s-grant-or-robert-e-lee-180952005/
9. https://civilwar.vt.edu/robert-e-lee-the-eternal-general/
10. https://www.newsletter.co.uk/heritage-and-retro/heritage/icon-civil-war-just-how-great-general-was-robert-e-lee-2985375
11. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Wilderness#Grant's_plan
12. https://www.history.com/topics/american-civil-war/battle-of-the-wilderness#:~:text=The%20Battle%20of%20the%20Wilderness%20ended%20inconclusively%2C%20though%20the%20Union,toll%20suffered%20by%20the%20Confederates.
13. https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/total-war-civil-wars-effect-home-front#:~:text=The%20American%20Civil%20War%20has,in%20which%20soldiers%20remained%20widely
14. https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/congress-passes-civil-war-conscription-act#:~:text=During%20the%20Civil%20War%2C%20the,becoming%20citizens%2C%20by%20April%201.
15. https://www.archives.gov/exhibits/featured-documents/emancipation-proclamation#:~:text=President%20Abraham%20Lincoln%20issued%20the,and%20henceforward%20shall%20be%20free.%22
16. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-lincoln/lincoln-letter-on-gettysburg-found-at-u-s-archives-idUSN0720751120070607

PRO's R1 SOURCES:

[1]https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/ulysses-s-grant-myth-unconditional-surrender-begins-fort-donelson
[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overland_Campaign
[3]https://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Battle_of_the_Wilderness
[4]https://towardsdatascience.com/napoleon-was-the-best-general-ever-and-the-math-proves-it-86efed303eeb
https://ethanarsht.github.io/military_rankings/
https://ethanarsht.github.io/military_rankings/Robert%20E.%20Lee.html
[5]https://www.wearethemighty.com/history/best-generals-ranked-by-statistics?rebelltitem=10#rebelltitem10
[6]https://towardsdatascience.com/napoleon-was-the-best-general-ever-and-the-math-proves-it-86efed303eeb
[7]https://www.historynet.com/the-butchers-bill.htm
[8]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_S._Grant_and_the_American_Civil_War
[9]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Shiloh
[10]https://www.history.com/topics/us-presidents/ulysses-s-grant-1#ulysses-grant-quotes