Islam vs Athiesm
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 1 vote and with 4 points ahead, the winner is...
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- One week
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
I, Rayhan16, am on the side of Islam. I want to debate a contender that is on the side of atheism. The basis of this debate is the following:
Which is the true belief. Islam or Atheism. The belief of one God with all of His teachings, or the belief of no God.
[2.88] And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief; so little it is that they believe.
[2.98] Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His apostles and Jibreel and Meekaeel, so surely Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.
And [recall] when We took the covenant from the Children of Israel, [enjoining upon them], "Do not worship except Allah ; and to parents do good and to relatives, orphans, and the needy. And speak to people good [words] and establish prayer and give zakah." Then you turned away, except a few of you, and you were refusing.84 And [recall] when We took your covenant, [saying], "Do not shed each other's blood or evict one another from your homes." Then you acknowledged [this] while you were witnessing.85 Then, you are those [same ones who are] killing one another and evicting a party of your people from their homes, cooperating against them in sin and aggression. And if they come to you as captives, you ransom them, although their eviction was forbidden to you. So do you believe in part of the Scripture and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on the Day of Resurrection they will be sent back to the severest of punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.86 Those are the ones who have bought the life of this world [in exchange] for the Hereafter, so the punishment will not be lightened for them, nor will they be aided.87 And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], with what your souls did not desire, you were arrogant? And a party [of messengers] you denied and another party you killed.88 And they said, "Our hearts are wrapped." But, [in fact], Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so little is it that they believe.89 And when there came to them a Book from Allah confirming that which was with them - although before they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieved - but [then] when there came to them that which they recognized, they disbelieved in it; so the curse of Allah will be upon the disbelievers.90 How wretched is that for which they sold themselves - that they would disbelieve in what Allah has revealed through [their] outrage that Allah would send down His favor upon whom He wills from among His servants. So they returned having [earned] wrath upon wrath. And for the disbelievers is a humiliating punishment.91 And when it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah has revealed," they say, "We believe [only] in what was revealed to us." And they disbelieve in what came after it, while it is the truth confirming that which is with them. Say, "Then why did you kill the prophets of Allah before, if you are [indeed] believers?"92 And Moses had certainly brought you clear proofs. Then you took the calf [in worship] after that, while you were wrongdoers.93 And [recall] when We took your covenant and raised over you the mount, [saying], "Take what We have given you with determination and listen." They said [instead], "We hear and disobey." And their hearts absorbed [the worship of] the calf because of their disbelief. Say, "How wretched is that which your faith enjoins upon you, if you should be believers."94 Say, [O Muhammad], "If the home of the Hereafter with Allah is for you alone and not the [other] people, then wish for death, if you should be truthful.95 But they will never wish for it, ever, because of what their hands have put forth. And Allah is Knowing of the wrongdoers.96 And you will surely find them the most greedy of people for life - [even] more than those who associate others with Allah . One of them wishes that he could be granted life a thousand years, but it would not remove him in the least from the [coming] punishment that he should be granted life. And Allah is Seeing of what they do.97 Say, "Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel - it is [none but] he who has brought the Qur'an down upon your heart, [O Muhammad], by permission of Allah , confirming that which was before it and as guidance and good tidings for the believers."98 Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and His messengers and Gabriel and Michael - then indeed, Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers.99 And We have certainly revealed to you verses [which are] clear proofs, and no one would deny them except the defiantly disobedient.100 Is it not [true] that every time they took a covenant a party of them threw it away? But, [in fact], most of them do not believe.101 And when a messenger from Allah came to them confirming that which was with them, a party of those who had been given the Scripture threw the Scripture of Allah behind their backs as if they did not know [what it contained].102 And they followed [instead] what the devils had recited during the reign of Solomon. It was not Solomon who disbelieved, but the devils disbelieved, teaching people magic and that which was revealed to the two angels at Babylon, Harut and Marut. But the two angels do not teach anyone unless they say, "We are a trial, so do not disbelieve [by practicing magic]." And [yet] they learn from them that by which they cause separation between a man and his wife. But they do not harm anyone through it except by permission of Allah . And the people learn what harms them and does not benefit them. But the Children of Israel certainly knew that whoever purchased the magic would not have in the Hereafter any share. And wretched is that for which they sold themselves, if they only knew.
153 O you who have believed, seek help through patience and prayer. Indeed, Allah is with the patient.154 And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah , "They are dead." Rather, they are alive, but you perceive [it] not.155 And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient,157 Those are the ones upon whom are blessings from their Lord and mercy. And it is those who are the [rightly] guided.
And say not of those who are slain in God's cause, "They are dead": nay, they are alive, but you perceive it notNever say that those martyred in the cause of Allah are dead—in fact, they are alive! But you do not perceive it.Do not say that those killed in God's path are dead; they are alive, though you do not realize it.
During the debate about Islam and democracy, Muslim religious scholars and intellectuals have fallen into three broad camps.
The first camp rejects both democracy and secularism as Western concepts that are not even worth refuting. In this fundamentalist view, participating even in everyday politics, such as joining a political party or voting, is haram, or religiously forbidden. This view has been the position of the Wahhabi clerics in Saudi Arabia, the Taliban in Afghanistan, and—for decades—the various Salafi schools.
The second camp claims that returning to the “true tenets” of Islam will create the best kind of democracy. In this conservative view, the faithful may deliberate to understand the true path, but the idea that religion is the ultimate truth is not negotiable. These Islamists invoke the concept of towhid, or the oneness, uniqueness, and sovereignty of God, which can never be replaced by the will of the people.
But the second camp also invokes Muslim practices to claim that modern political ideology meets the basic requirements of democracy. For example, it says the shura, the forum or council for deliberations, is the equivalent of a parliament.
The third camp advocates ijtihad, or reinterpreting Islam to make it compatible with the universal concept of democracy. This position is more common among lay intellectuals than among clerics. But opening up the doors of ijtihad, which conservative scholars had believed were closed since the Middle Ages, has already produced its own spectrum of ideas, not all in agreement with each other.
The Islamist reformers often have a larger audience in the West than in their own countries, not just because of domestic censorship and harassment. Some reformers are deemed to be too intellectual, too abstract, or too tied to an artificial theology. Their philosophical approach is disconnected from popular religious practices, and the teachings at most madrassas, or religious schools.
Sahih International: O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.
[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.[8.13] This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Apostle; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Apostle-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).[8.14] This-- taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the chastisement of fire.[8.15] O you who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them.[8.16] And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day-- unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company-- then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be.[8.17] So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
Islam refers to everyone who doesn't believe in Allah as a variant of 'disbeliever'
This is such a fundamental problem for Islam and is linked to some disturbing notions within it regarding especially Christians and Jews.
Remember, in the exact same section (2, 'the cow') that it is said bloodshed is not to be done and turning people away from homes Allah is against, it says to slay/kill people in the way of Allah and that Allah will forgive it for it is not 'real killing'.
it says to slay/kill people in the way of Allah and that Allah will forgive it for it is not 'real killing'.
And say not of those who are slain in God's cause, "They are dead": nay, they are alive, but you perceive it notNever say that those martyred in the cause of Allah are dead—in fact, they are alive! But you do not perceive it.Do not say that those killed in God's path are dead; they are alive, though you do not realize it.
Now, this can be said to just be translation, sure, yet the Hadith and Qur'an have been censored and altered over time to leave out rather horrific parts (oh yes, there are parts worse than this but this is among the most horrifying as it appears early on in the Qur'an and sets precedent for Islamic terrorism).
The fact is that the reason there even are able to be moderate vs extremist Muslims is because Moderates are actually ignoring many extreme lines in Islam (and that is a good thing). It's a backwards, horrific text that has lines like this:Sahih International: O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.
This is not at all taken out of context
So, it's firstly a direct sin to be a friend of a Christian or Jew, yet it teaches to tolerate elsewhere.
that theory is even supported by a Quranic verse I am sure Pro will be happy to provide
In fact, the biggest and most brutal contradiction of Islam is that gambling is a sin in Islam, yet it relies on you betting your whole life on Allah being the real god.
Lo! Thy Sustainer inspired the angels [to convey this His message to the believers]: "I am with you!" [And He commanded the angels:] "And, give firmness unto those who have attained to faith [with these words from Me]: `I shall cast terror into the hearts of those who are bent on denying the truth; strike, then, their necks, [O believers,] and strike off every one of their finger-tips!"˹Remember, O Prophet,˺ when your Lord revealed to the angels, “I am with you. So make the believers stand firm. I will cast horror into the hearts of the disbelievers. So strike their necks and strike their fingertips.”Your Lord revealed to the angels, "I am with you. Make the Believers stand firm; I will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. So strike above their necks and cut off their fingers."When inspired your Lord to the Angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who believed. I will cast in (the) hearts (of) those who disbelieved - the terror, so strike above the necks and strike from them every fingertip[s]."Generally Accepted Translations of the MeaningLo! Thy Sustainer inspired the angels [to convey this His message to the believers]: "I am with you!" [And He commanded the angels:] "And, give firmness unto those who have attained to faith [with these words from Me]: `I shall cast terror into the hearts of those who are bent on denying the truth; strike, then, their necks, [O believers,] and strike off every one of their finger-tips!"When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each fingerRemember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."˹Remember, O Prophet,˺ when your Lord revealed to the angels, “I am with you. So make the believers stand firm. I will cast horror into the hearts of the disbelievers. So strike their necks and strike their fingertips.”Your Lord revealed to the angels, "I am with you. Make the Believers stand firm; I will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. So strike above their necks and cut off their fingers."When your Lord commanded the angels, saying, I am with you, so make those who believe stand firm. I will instill fear in the hearts of those who deny the truth: so strike their necks and strike all their finger joints![13]When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of themMention when thy Lord reveals to the angels: I am, truly, with you, so make those who believed firm. I will cast alarm into the hearts of those who were ungrateful. So strike above their necks and strike each of their fingers from them.So your Lord inspired the angels: "I am with you, so brace those who believe. I shall cast panic into the hearts of those who disbelieve; so strike at the nape of their necks and beat every [last] fingertip of theirs!"(Remember) when your Lord inspired to the angels: “I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast the terror in the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike above their necks, and strike over all their fingertips.”Behold, thy Lord revealed unto the angels, “Truly I am with you; so make firm those who believe. I shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. So strike above the neck, and strike their every fingertip.Dr. Kamal Omar(Bring to mind) when your Nourisher-Sustainer makes Wahi to the angels that: “I am with you. So keep firm those who have Believed. Soon I will cast terror in the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike proximal to (their) necks and smite (over) all fingers and toes of those (disbelievers).”Then your Lord revealed His will to the angels: "I am with you, give courage to the believers. I will cast panic into the hearts of the unbelievers, therefore, smite their necks and beat every joint of their bodies."
Yet, it is edited.
the Qur'an has remained stubborn and ignorant in the face of any new discoveries, adaptations of society, so on and so forth.
Islam has been able to last in the West without seeming like the backwards misogynistic and homophobic religion
befriend a Jew or Christian is inherently an enemy of Islam
Also, that verse is about the Battle of Badr
What I am telling you is that it is a sin in Islam to even consider other Gods, to even befriend a Jew and Christian is explicitly prohibited, I showed that in Round 1.
Pro needs to explain to use why all the other gods are less likely than Allah and then prove why that god is required to explain reality when the god itself raises just as many, if not more, questions that the reality already has about its origin.
Okay seriously, WTF, pro actually closes out his final round by randomly making the bizarre declaring atheism is bad in part for not raping 7 year olds... This is such a huge an distraction from arguments (and insult at all non-pedophiles), that I'm penalizing conduct.
A = Atheism
I = Islam
Pro says that A believes some silly things about how the universe was formed.
Con says that I believes in murdering everyone who has a different belief (even foreshadows pro's counter case with talk of how they consider it not real killing since it's non-believers). Con fortifies this with the various translations (which pro denies exist) and interpretations, leaving I on shaky ground.
Without A shown to do something equal or worse, or I perfectly defended to dismiss all doubts about the murders, this is a landslide.
Con further leverages pro's own interpretation of I, for it being opposed to 1500 years advancement in knowledge, which pro doesn't seem to understand why that is an issue.
Ty for your vote
Yes I understand that when I said this:
From the basic understanding of Atheism, it is pretty obvious that it is just a lack of belief, not an actual belief.
I do admit I said belief in various other quotes so I misunderstood there.
There is a difference between belief and understanding (i.e. comprehension).
https://www.askdifference.com/understanding-vs-belief/
Atheists have no faith or belief there is no god, they just understand there is no god as there is no reason to believe in one.
I think ill pass, good luck though!
Description has been updated.
What do you want to argue in this debate rayhan? the likelihood of Islam vs atheism?
Which one is the right belief, Islam or atheism. That is the basis of this debate
what does this mean? what are u going to debate?