Instigator / Pro
12
1687
rating
555
debates
68.11%
won
Topic
#406

Polygamy should be legalised if marriage is still present in the society in question.

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
9
Better sources
6
6
Better legibility
3
3
Better conduct
3
3

After 3 votes and with 9 points ahead, the winner is...

thett3
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
4
Time for argument
Two days
Max argument characters
30,000
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
21
1523
rating
2
debates
75.0%
won
Description

No information

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

This debate was a bit odd to judge, as much of Pro's argumentation was incoherent and didn't connect with Con's actual arguments. Con's case was built around practicality, attacking polygamy on the basis of competition for mates and larger ancillary deleterious trends in behavior, and drew on real world evidence. He also made good arguments when it comes to how this would practically be implemented in a society built around monogamy in myriad ways. Pro largely focuses on claims that concerns of practicality don't apply, but never convincingly makes the case for this. He attempts to counter some of Con's sources, but misses the mark. For example, this is his primary rebuttal of Con's data:

'Con is referring to that adultery (which is basically cheating but specific to when it's done to someone you're married to and not just your girlfriend/boyfriend who legally you aren't married to) is legal and causes a lot of pain and other things to happen as a result. The harms that the studies Coin brings forth come with pseudo-polygamous relationships which are pseudo not because they lack marriage alone but because they are done where only one partner in a 'pairing' actually wants the polyamory and all of that, while the others is filled with envy, pain and regret.'

Yet the source cited by pro is literally titled "The Case Against Encouraging Polygamy / Why civil marriage should not encompass group unions". The study is explicitly about what Con says it isn't. It isn't about adultery, but about civil marriage extending to group unions. Pro continues to argue for several points concerning the history of polygamy and conjecture about how a polygamous society would work. In a debate in which he must defend the resolution, and in which Con has already made pretty devastating blows against claims that polygamy would produce happiness and maintain marriage as an institution (which he also showed to be beneficial through research), I feel as if I have to vote Con because those points have not been adequately rebutted. It doesn't matter how well a martial has shadowboxed against an imaginary enemy if his actual opponent has pummeled him into the ground in the meantime. I would advise RM to focus more acutely on directly countering his opponents in the future; he could really improve his debate game, and stand a much better chance when going up against veterans. If you are debating abstract morality, sometimes it is tenable to appeal to idealism, but trying to defend the a utopian ideal in a debate which is about a change in real life policy is always going to be an untenable position if your opponent argues from a point of practicality. I hope that he learns from this and grows as a debater; that's one of the great benefits of losing against an opponent like Thett3.

No points for conduct, as neither opponent was particularly out of line. Sources were both adequate (the debate largely hinged on impacts), as was S&G.

Merry Christmas everybody!

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

Arguments:

So, pros opening round was primarily pre-emptive. While that is perfectly legitimate, its up to pro to positively establish his case. If con makes any of the arguments for which these pre-emptive replies address, I will consider them.

Cons opening round points to primary harms - the complexity of implementation formal government recognized polygamy, and the societal harm caused by it. This was daily short, but well justified on the part of con.

Pros first rebuttal appears to mostly ignore cons argument concerning practicality.

Pro first assets that con mixed up polyamory and polygamy - I’m not entirely certainly what pro is actually talking about here, as it seemed fairly clear to me, I can’t see how pros accusations tie back into cons argument either.

Pro goes on to raise a potential benefit of polygamy, in that it allows children to be raised better - it’s very hard to specifically disentangle what pro is actually attempting to affirmatively argue.

Pro points out that cons argument concerning social issues was covered in round 1. Referring back to pros argument - this does not appear to be covered - con is arguing that the competition caused by polygamy is poisonous due to the social dynamics of competition between men, pros opening argument appears similar in talking about how it benefits rich men - but does not offer a rebuttal to the dynamics con describes.

Moving on to cons next round - con argues that burden of proof is not on them. My analysis of the resolution and the info concurs, it is not fair to push burden of proof on an opponent when the resolution strongly implies the opposite.

Con also points out that his opening point was defensive - and also largely conceded when pro agreed with most of the issues raised. What’s troublesome here is pro is effectively agreeing with the fundamental facts that con used to demonstrate polygamy is poisonous

Con also points out that there is no law preventing open marriages, and points out the killer line that if it was so popular and in demand, why is it so vanishingly rare?

Con rounds this rebuttal with a reasonable defense that points out the damage of polygamous societies due to competition - and points out that pro is basically trying to argue as if societies are purely egalitarian.

Con points out pro did not address key practicalities.

Pros rebuttal claims marriage has led to egalitarian societies, due to adultery being punishable. As far as I can see his primary defense of polygamy is to effectively concede everything con argued - but is now saying that despite monogamy being responsible for building egalitarian societies - polygamy would still work.

Despite reading through pros round 3 several times, I cant understand most of what he’s even trying to argue. I’m finding most of what he’s saying barely comprehensible, and I cannot determine the positive aspects of polygamy he’s trying to argue (other than a general its good), and I can’t see any specific case where he argue against the practicality, or against the detrimental point con raises.

Con - reiterates their position.

At the end of this, I did not feel pro offered any meaningful defense or argument as to why polygamy should be legalized: and did not offer any meaningful rebuttal of cons points at any point. While much of what pro said was interesting it was at times difficult to understand and appeared irrelevant to the contention. While I don’t necessarily think cons side was well justified in real terms, it was unrefuted by pro - so has to stand.

As a result, I must give argument points to con.

All other points: tied.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eNWpfnvwtJVEEkuVio1E8o1cTYXCo7prUMDBxwgvgV4/edit?usp=sharing

Good debate! PM me for any questions.