Instigator
Points: 3

Bernie Sanders is a social democrat, not a democratic socialist

Finished

The voting period has ended

After 2 votes the winner is ...
Alec
Debate details
Publication date
Last update
Category
Politics
Time for argument
Three days
Voting system
Open voting
Voting period
One week
Point system
Four points
Rating mode
Rated
Characters per argument
30,000
Contender
Points: 14
Description
No information
Round 1
Published:
In the first round I will be replying to Alec's erroneous drivel from the comment section.

"Well I'll start out by saying that America's very political system is right wing" Compared to China, yes. Compared to Africa, no
China is communist in name only. They have less social programs and just as much privatization as America. In fact, China is the epitome of wage slavery. 

"in America most people don't even know what socialism is and are only told that it is bad." Then explain why Bernie Sanders almost won against Hillary Clinton in the primaries. If Hillary was a male, then Bernie would have won since many people voted for Hillary solely because she was a woman. Also, rational wiki is not a reliable source. They are biased.
Bernie Sanders is not a socialist, that is the entire point of this debate which one of these sounds more like Bernie Sanders?

SOCIALISM is a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Social democracy is a political, social and economic ideology that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democratic polity and capitalist economy.

"Canada may have a lower GDP, but it also has a higher standard of living" I measure Standard of living by GDP per person on average. It's numerical, which I think is easy to understand.
Then show me the GDP "per person" then. A nation's GDP means nothing if all of the fruits of civilization go to the one percent and those who produce everything have a low quality of life.

"California is the US state with the highest GDP and it is considered one of the most left leaning." This is because urban areas tend to have a higher GDP per capita then rural areas and California is pretty urban compared to a state like Mississippi.
Urban areas also tend to be left leaning.

"Also America regularly and continually engages in economic imperialism" Can you cite this?
A complete map of all the countries America has invaded:-
https://www.indy100.com/article/usa-american-army-invasions-police-actions-overseas-dod-defense-war-troops- deployment-marines-7908611
Feel free to map these invasions to their respective Presidents:-
(1) American Indian nations (1776 onwards, American Indian Genocide; 1803, Louisiana Purchase; 1844, Indians banned from east of the Mississippi; 1861 onwards, California genocide; 1890, Lakota Indians massacre), (2) Mexico (1836-1846; 1913; 1914-1918; 1923), (3) Nicaragua (1856-1857; 1894; 1896; 1898; 1899; 1907; 1910; 1912-1933; 1981-1990), (4) American forces deployed against Americans (1861-1865, Civil War; 1892; 1894; 1898; 1899-1901; 1901; 1914; 1915; 1920-1921; 1932; 1943; 1967; 1968; 1970; 1973; 1992; 2001), (5), Argentina (1890), (6), Chile (1891; 1973), (7) Haiti (1891; 1914-1934; 1994; 2004-2005), (8) Hawaii (1893-), (9) China (1895-1895; 1898-1900; 1911-1941; 1922-1927; 1927-1934; 1948-1949; 1951-1953; 1958), (10) Korea (1894-1896; 1904-1905; 1951-1953), (11) Panama (1895; 1901-1914; 1908; 1912; 1918-1920; 1925; 1958; 1964; 1989-), (12) Philippines (1898-1910; 1948-1954; 1989; 2002-), (13) Cuba (1898-1902; 1906-1909; 1912; 1917-1933; 1961; 1962), (14) Puerto Rico (1898-; 1950; ); (15) Guam (1898-), (16) Samoa (1899-), (17) Honduras (1903; 1907; 1911; 1912; 1919; 1924-1925; 1983-1989), (18) Dominican Republic (1903-1904; 1914; 1916-1924; 1965-1966), (19) Germany (1917-1918; 1941-1945; 1948; 1961), (20) Russia (1918-1922), (21) Yugoslavia (1919; 1946; 1992-1994; 1999), (22) Guatemala (1920; 1954; 1966-1967), (23) Turkey (1922), (24) El Salvador (1932; 1981-1992), (25) Italy (1941-1945); (26) Morocco (1941-1945), (27) France (1941-1945), (28) Algeria (1941-1945), (29) Tunisia (1941-1945), (30) Libya (1941-1945; 1981; 1986; 1989; 2011), (31) Egypt (1941-1945; 1956; 1967; 1973; 2013), (32) India (1941-1945), (33) Burma (1941-1945), (34) Micronesia (1941-1945), (35) Papua New Guinea (1941-1945), (36) Vanuatu (1941-1945), (37) Austria (1941-1945), (38) Hungary (1941-1945), (39) Japan (1941-1945), (40) Iran (1946; 1953; 1980; 1984; 1987-1988; ), (41) Uruguay (1947), (42) Greece (1947-1949), (43) Vietnam (1954; 1960-1975), (44) Lebanon (1958; 1982-1984), (45) Iraq (1958; 1963; 1990-1991; 1990-2003; 1998; 2003-2011), (46) Laos (1962-), (47) Indonesia (1965), (48) Cambodia (1969-1975; 1975), (49) Oman (1970), (50) Laos (1971-1973), (51) Angola (1976-1992), (52) Grenada (1983-1984), (53) Bolivia (1986; ), (54) Virgin Islands (1989), (55) 1997), (61) Albania (1997), (62) Sudan (1998), (63) Afghanistan (1998; 2001-), (64) Yemen (2000; 2002-), (65) Macedonia (2001), (66) Colombia (2002-), (67) Liberia (1990; 1997; 2003), (56) Saudi Arabia (1990-1991), (57) Kuwait (1991), (58) Somalia (1992-1994; 2006), (59) Bosnia (1993-), (60) Zaire (Congo) (1996-https://www.countercurrents.org/polya050713.htm
"many more left leaning countries are smaller and were less developed to begin with" What caused them to be poor while America became rich? If you blame colonialism, America does not engage in colonialism much without turning the areas it conquerors into states, thereby giving them representation in the US gov. The US used to be a colony it's self. If Colonialism helped the US but somehow hurt other nations, then why would colonialism sometimes be beneficial and sometimes be hurtful?
I just told you that they were poor to begin with, you know, before socialism. I'm not even getting into colonialism right now. 

"Many countries which right wingers point at and say "see, socialism is crap" were poor to begin with and actually improved under socialism." Venezuela did not improve under socialism. They had to go into inflation and right wing Columbia had to accept around 1 million immigrants from Venezuela that fled due to better opportunities that right wing policies generated.
The majority of Venezuela's industry is privately owned.
Published:
You basically go off on a rant on how much you hate capitalism and love socialism.  That is not what the point of the debate is about.  This is about the political position of Bernie Sanders.

Bernie Sanders is a democratic socialist.
His official platform position is, "Bernie identifies as a democratic socialist."(http://feelthebern.org/who-is-bernie-sanders/).
Round 2
Forfeited
Published:
Argument extended.
Round 3
Forfeited
Published:
Vote Con.  God Bless America.
Added:
I don't think Bernie is very social... He seems to be relatively introverted if you ask me.
#17
Added:
--> @Nd24007
I think Bernie is probably a democratic socialist, because he says that tax breaks give us money, that and he is a communist sympathizer.
#16
Added:
--> @Type1
The American spectrum is different than much of the world because Americans have rights as a people that the government is subordinate too. Liberty is held as paramount, and then we talk. That's also why socialism is considered taboo, as a mode of thinking that undermines the fundamental principle of the nation. If someone believes that so and so should be a right, instead of so and so being a right, than that would imply that they don't understand the nations values, and they might be labeled a socialist or a leftist rather than a social democrat, this being the people who think the government needs to intervene with social programs and make life more fair or what have you.
#15
Added:
Keep the debate out of the comment sections... LoL
Anyways Bernie Sanders is a social democrat. His only chance of surviving is running Democrat.
#14
Added:
--> @Raltar
Simple and effective, put a smirk on my face too.
#13
Added:
--> @Alec
LOL! Love the round 1 response. Type 1 is famous for his off-topic rants.
#12
Added:
The return of Type1!!!
#11
Added:
"Well I'll start out by saying that America's very political system is right wing" Compared to China, yes. Compared to Africa, no.
"in America most people don't even know what socialism is and are only told that it is bad." Then explain why Bernie Sanders almost won against Hillary Clinton in the primaries. If Hillary was a male, then Bernie would have won since many people voted for Hillary solely because she was a woman. Also, rational wiki is not a reliable source. They are biased.
"Canada may have a lower GDP, but it also has a higher standard of living" I measure Standard of living by GDP per person on average. It's numerical, which I think is easy to understand.
"California is the US state with the highest GDP and it is considered one of the most left leaning." This is because urban areas tend to have a higher GDP per capita then rural areas and California is pretty urban compared to a state like Mississippi.
"Also America regularly and continually engages in economic imperialism" Can you cite this?
"many more left leaning countries are smaller and were less developed to begin with" What caused them to be poor while America became rich? If you blame colonialism, America does not engage in colonialism much without turning the areas it conquerors into states, thereby giving them representation in the US gov. The US used to be a colony it's self. If Colonialism helped the US but somehow hurt other nations, then why would colonialism sometimes be beneficial and sometimes be hurtful?
"Many countries which right wingers point at and say "see, socialism is crap" were poor to begin with and actually improved under socialism." Venezuela did not improve under socialism. They had to go into inflation and right wing Columbia had to accept around 1 million immigrants from Venezuela that fled due to better opportunities that right wing policies generated.
Contender
#10
Added:
--> @Alec
Well I'll start out by saying that America's very political system is right wing and socialism is largely taboo in mainstream American politics. In many other countries socialism is actually seen as an option whereas in America most people don't even know what socialism is and are only told that it is bad.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Democratic_Party
Canada may have a lower GDP, but it also has a higher standard of living. California is the US state with the highest GDP and it is considered one of the most left leaning. Also America regularly and continually engages in economic imperialism which is where much of it's resources come from, not only that but many more left leaning countries are smaller and were less developed to begin with so comparing them with America is not a good way to determine if socialistic systems can work in general. Many countries which right wingers point at and say "see, socialism is crap" were poor to begin with and actually improved under socialism.
Technocracy is the idea that politics in general is inadequate in addressing the socio-economic needs of mankind and that all things, including society are based in technical/materialistic realities. Society is governed by methodology in technocracy and decisions are "arrived at" or extrapolated rather than "made" by individuals.
Instigator
#9
Added:
"Our "left" is actually closer to centrists by universal standards." Can you cite this from someplace reliable?
"That being said, you've never experienced real left wing government and are gravely mistaken about it's true nature." Other people have. Canada is a left wing country and their GDP per capita is about 80% that of the US. Quebec is much more left then the rest of Canada and their GDP per capita is about 60% of relatively Capitalist USA.
"technocracy" What is technocracy?
Contender
#8
Added:
--> @Alec
No, a dem-soc is a Socialist, a soc-dem wants a mixed economy. In America things don't mean the same thing as they do elsewhere. Our "left" is actually closer to centrists by universal standards. That being said, you've never experienced real left wing government and are gravely mistaken about it's true nature. Obama was the closest thing you've had and he is center-left.
Socialism is a blanket term for anything that is on the far left, social democracy is in between capitalism and socialism. Communism was always a form of socialism, but all socialists are not communists. Democratic socialism is seen by marxists as a step towards communism while some see that as the goal in itself. I am something which is not well known but technically socialistic so I just call myself a socialist. It is basically a mixture between communism and technocracy, it's called a Resource Based Economy.
Instigator
#7
Added:
"A dem-soc on the other hand is a full on socialist who is totally against capitalism." Didn't a Dem-Soc use to be the definition that you described for a social democrat? But then they changed it because people realized that it failed?
Why does the economic left constantly change names when their policies fail? First, they pick communism as their title. Next, Socialism. Next, Democratic Socialism. Now, Social Democracy. What's next?
Contender
#6
Added:
--> @Alec
A social democrat generally wants a controlled market with strong regulations on large corporations, more social programs and more democracy. They are like democrats except they take a top-down reformist approach to bringing things farther left. A dem-soc on the other hand is a full on socialist who is totally against capitalism. They want to straight up collectivize the means of production and many of them are Marxists.
Instigator
#5
Added:
What is the difference?
Contender
#4
Added:
--> @Type1
Yeah, you're not wrong, they would. A president can't do that, he was a pointless filler candidate that people had flase hope in. I support Hillary all along but I genuinely wouldn't have likes a Bernie win less than this Gold haired maniac.
#3
#2
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
LOL WUT?
Pro opens the debate by going off on a completely off-topic rant about the "drivel" from the comments section. Dragging the comments section into the debate is bad enough on it's own, but the fact that his rant never even mentioned the actual topic of the debate further makes this strategy maddeningly illogical.
Con's rebuttal was simple, efficient and ultimately correct; Bernie Sanders self-identifies as a democratic socialist on his own website.
This was never refused by Pro, who forfeited the remainder of the debate without further comment. Arguments and conduct to Con.
#1
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
Full forfeit.