Instigator / Pro
Points: 10

The Sith are good and the Jedi are evil

Finished

The voting period has ended

After 3 votes the winner is ...
Earth
Debate details
Publication date
Last update
Category
Movies
Time for argument
Two days
Voting system
Open voting
Voting period
One week
Point system
Four points
Rating mode
Rated
Characters per argument
30,000
Contender / Con
Points: 21
Description
No information
Round 1
Published:
I will begin by compiling a list of reasons the Jedi are a bunch of ass holes followed by a list of reasons why the Sith are not truly "evil".

The Jedi are a bunch of ass holes

1) Part of the Jedi code states "There is no emotion, there is peace". The Jedi are taught to detach themselves from their own emotions, similar to Buddhist monks, and instead  view their emotions as waves of impulse which they must recognise, but allow to dissipate rather than holding on to them or associating with them. In this way the Jedi are taught to control their emotions, but at what cost? The Jedi are supposed to be compassionate, but their compassion is very different from the type of compassion that most people are used to. They do not experience empathy or compassion, but rather enact it in very cool and calculated ways because it is there supposed duty, not because they necessarily care. This allows well trained Jedi such as Qui Gon Jinn and Yoda to leave Anakin's mother in slavery and poverty despite it being well within  Qui Gon's power to save her, simply because it is not part of his mission to free slaves. (He only freed Anakin because he thought he was the chosen one.) In the case of Yoda, he is entirely incapable of empathizing with Anakin (the Jedi's lack of empathy probably is why they could not see that Anakin was obviously in a relationship with Padme)When Anakin tells Yoda that he misses his mother in episode 1 Yoda essentially tells him "Stop being such a pussy, if you worry about other people you will suffer". In episode 3 when Anakin tells Yoda that he has dream-visions of someone he cares about dying Yoda basically tells him "Stop caring and be happy about it when people die".

2) Anakin turned to the dark side specifically because he is human, there really isn't much more to it. It would be more accurate to call the dark side the "natural side" and the light side the "robot side".Think about everything that lead to Anakin's "fall" to the dark side. He has a natural hatred of injustice and ambition to be great because he witnessed and experienced total oppression as a slave on tatooine and was belittled and held back by his slave status despite knowing he had great potential. The Jedi tried to indoctrinate him that these very healthy thoughts and feelings were evil and dangerous, and that he should let go of his anger in the face of injustice and humble himself despite being referred to as the "chosen one" and having greater potential than any force user in history. If you add into the equation that the Jedi forbade him from giving a rats ass about his own mother, taught him to suppress his feelings and forbade him from having a wife or caring about anyone on a personal level, then Anakin's transformation into a Dark Lord seems perfectly reasonable. It's perfectly understandable in this context why Anakin seems to be a whiney, entitled, unstable emotional wreck in episode 2. He was conditioned to hold in perfectly natural emotions and taught that they were evil for 10 years whilst also being called "Padawan" despite being more intelligent and powerful than 50% of Jedi masters at the time. He simply could not hold in his emotions forever and they "boiled over" because unlike most Jedi he was not brainwashed from birth to be a robot.

3) The Jedi rip children away from their families before they are old enough to consent (it's almost a form of rape) and brainwash them before they are old enough to know 1 + 1 that emotions are evil.

4)The Jedi may appear at first glance to be defenders of peace and justice but in reality they are a merely religious cult. They are programmed to use their abilities only for defence, which essentially means that the Jedi council would allow millions of innocent beings to be destroyed rather than initiate a conflict if it was the only way to stop the forces of evil.

The Sith are not actually evil per se

1) There is nothing inherently evil about the Sith code, which goes as follows:
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
When viewed in it's proper context, as a response to the Jedi code, all this means is "being an emotionless robot is a lie, you do you bro."

2) There is nothing about the Sith way that prevents you from being evil, there have been Sith who are blatantly evil psychopaths such as Palpatine. But there are also Sith with very noble intentions, such as Vader who merely wanted the power to save people and Plagueis (the master of Darth Sidious/Palpatine) who wanted to bring order and justice to a galaxy in the midst of unkempt chaos and crime.

“Remember why the Sith are more powerful than the Jedi, Sidious: because we are not afraid to feel. We embrace the spectrum of emotions, from the heights of transcendent joy to the depths of hatred and despair. Fearless, we welcome whatever paths the dark side sets us on, and whatever destiny it lays out for us.” 
"You have the Force, apprentice, and the talent to lead. More, you have the bloodlust of a serial killer, though we need to hold that in reserve unless violence serves some extraordinary purpose. We are not butchers, Sidious, like some past Sith Lords. We are architects of the future." - Darth Plagueis


3) Even Sidious, perhaps the most evil of all the Sith, brought order and peace to the galaxy compared to the republic which was unruly and ravaged with crime and war.


Published:
I thank Pro for this debate. Pro says that the Jedi are evil and that the Sith are good. While the Jedi aren't perfect, they certainly not evil, and while the Sith might have some dashes of grey in them, they are if anything, evil.

This is a very long video, about two hours long. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z0S0Z8lUTg 

This is not necessary, but if you want to listen in, you can get a very good crash course on Star Wars and the wars between the Jedi and Sith.

Evil: "morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked" (dictionary.com) 
Good: "morally excellent; virtuous; righteous; pious" (dictionary.com)

Jedi Code:

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.

Sith Code:

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

(Both are from the Star Wars wikia)

I intend to prove that the Jedi better fit "good", than they do "evil", and the reverse for the Sith.

In Star Wars, there are mainly two factions of Force Sensitives, or those who can use the Force. The Jedi, and the Sith. Both factions have a history in Star Wars for thousands of years in universe and have spanned movies, comics, and video games. 

The Jedi are mainly peace loving and that they hope for a galaxy of harmony. They are opposed by the Sith, who want a "might makes right" world where strength is all that matters. While the Jedi have been allied with the Republic for all of Star Wars, the Sith mainly stayed in the shadows, although they did have an Empire for thousands of years, that fell long before the Original Trilogy. In the OT, Darth Vader and Darth Sidious were high ranking in the Galactic Empire. Almost all Jedi are selfless and almost all Sith are selfish.

Reading through Pro's round, whatever he says about the Jedi can be reversed and applied to the Sith. While the Jedi might selflessly give up their life, the Sith have no regard for any life that's not their's.

Pro's arguments:

1) Pro says the Jedi are evil because they act more like Buddhists and not humans. I disagree with this as this doesn't make them evil. Pro goes on to say that the Jedi left Anakin's mother on Tatoonie, despite the fact that they could. However, imagine if a Sith were in the Jedi's place. Would they help the slaves out of the goodness of their hearts? They probably would not. The Sith code basically says "compassion is for wimps". One thing I do want to note is that just about all Sith forget why they fell to the dark side in the first place. Anakin wanted to protect Padme, but killed her, and a Sith named Yuthura Ban from Knight of the Old Republic was a slave, and eventually joined the Republic, and explicitly forgot about the slaves and about her feelings for freeing the slaves.

2) This relates to what I said above, but Anakin did not join the dark side because he was human. Anakin never made life easier in the Galaxy, and he failed to protect Padme, to say that the Dark Side is natural is false.

3) Not to commit a whataboutism, but the Sith do this too. Hell, Anakin even killed younglings.

4) And the Sith were directly responsible for billions of deaths over the years. For example, while the Jedi dragged their feet in defending against the Mandalorians, It is somewhat implied that the Sith were responsible for the Mandalorian Wars and even if they weren't, they taken advantage of the war to attack the Republic.

Pro :The Sith are not actually evil per se
1) I disagree that the Jedi Code makes Jedi a robot, but the Sith Code is aggressive against any weakness

2) Vader had killed his own troops and really done nothing to help the Galaxy.

3) Sidious killed and enslaved billions of lives, while he might have conquered the galaxy, it wasn't peaceful.
Round 2
Published:
Your welcome, I have a couple videos for you as well.



Also, one should take note of the fact that Kreia is a grey force user and not a Jedi or Sith, her entire philosophy is her own.

The Jedi are mainly peace loving and that they hope for a galaxy of harmony. They are opposed by the Sith, who want a "might makes right" world where strength is all that matters.
The force is not light or dark, it is just the force, so the notion that the Jedi want balance and harmony is incorrect. They simply want to stop people from using the force for their own purposes, and control all use of the force to make sure it is used a certain way in service of the bureaucratic and sterile Jedi order. This is why they steal babies out of fear that they will use their powers in the "wrong" way. They are like thought police, only they are force police.
The Sith are meritocratic, that may manifest in brutal ways, but it is better than the Jedi who judge everything based on a blind adherence to religion. If the Jedi ruled the galaxy it would be a theocracy whereas the Sith create stable and productive regimes based on efficiency and keeping the peace. The Sith empires tend to leave you alone as long as you don't try to blow them up or disrupt order.

Almost all Jedi are selfless and almost all Sith are selfish.
This is a sweeping oversimplification. The Jedi are taught to serve, but they are not selfless. The Jedi order is a corporation based around religious principles and as such they serve specific interests and that is all. The Jedi's services are contract based, they do not do what they do out of a devotion to peace and justice but because those are the services elicited.
The Sith are not "selfish" but essentially free agents, they do whatever their heart tells them whether it be good or evil, because they are a very libertarian group of force wielding philosophers who believe in following one's own nature.
The flaws of the Jedi are inherent, but the Sith can be anything.

While the Jedi might selflessly give up their life, the Sith have no regard for any life that's not their's.
There is no basis for this assertion. The Sith have regard for whatever they personally regard. The Sith code does not tell you to be evil, it tells you to follow your passions, be a winner and be free
The Jedi code on the other hand tells you to be a robot.

Pro goes on to say that the Jedi left Anakin's mother on Tatoonie, despite the fact that they could. However, imagine if a Sith were in the Jedi's place. Would they help the slaves out of the goodness of their hearts? They probably would not.
If I handed you a lightsaber and sent you back to the 1820s would you start freeing slaves? I doubt it.

The Sith code basically says "compassion is for wimps".
Compassion is a type of passion, and the Sith are all about passion.

 Anakin wanted to protect Padme, but killed her
Wrong, Anakin thought she was cheating with Obi Wan so he choked her a bit but specifically made sure not to kill her. Keep in mind for Anakin this was like finding out your older brother has been boning your wife. Padme died from emotional shock plus the stress of childbirth overriding her nervous system and causing her to shut down.

Anakin did not join the dark side because he was human. Anakin never made life easier in the Galaxy
Yes he did an yes he did. first of all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL_PDgczHJc This video is about why Hayden Christensen played the character well but it's also insightful about Anakin's mentality.
Secondly, Anakin was considered a hero both by the republic and the empire. He was a war hero both as Anakin and Vader who saved countless lives.

Not to commit a whataboutism, but the Sith do this too. Hell, Anakin even killed younglings.
Anakin killing those younglings was the equivalent of killing a bunch of 8 year olds who were bred to be emotionless terrorists from birth by ISIS. They where emotionless little monsters who were systematically conditioned to be psychopaths.

Vader had killed his own troops
Vader killed them only in severe situations like when they betrayed him or the empire or showed such incompetence that they ended up indirectly causing numerous casualties.








Published:
I will look at those videos later. I will remind voters that Pro has a heavier BoP, but nonetheless, I'll prove my part. Moving on.

I would disagree that Kreia is a "gray Jedi". I believe she is in fact, a "dark Jedi". Do note I am not calling her Sith, but a "darker" version of the Jedi. I said this before, but Sith really don't remember why they fell. Kreia does, as did Revan. 

Pro: "The force is not light or dark, it is just the force, so the notion that the Jedi want balance and harmony is incorrect..."

I will note that this isn't Canon, and hasn't ever. There has been places dark in the force, such as Korriban, and times where light/dark side has affected people differently, such as appearances in the KOTOR games. Although, it is important that this is irrelevant, as we are talking about the Jedi and Sith, so this doesn't address my point. Pro also says that the Sith want people to stop using the Force for their own purposes. This is false. Kreia, although how ambiguous she can be, made it abundantly clear that the Sith are even worse than the Jedi in this regard. For example, Sion lives on through the Force. If he just gives up, he dies, and he admits as such and we see him die by this way. Nihilus, in the same game as Kreia and Sion, is similar to Sion in that he relies on the Force to feed him and is a slave to it. The big reason Kreia cares for the Exile is because she could live without the Force. The reason the Jedi "steal" babies, is because the Sith almost always makes the Galaxy a worse place. Pro gives no evidence that the Sith are any better and that the Galactic Empire, was, in fact, very ineffective. Even military matters, they were incompetent. Consider: https://angrystaffofficer.com/2017/07/10/warfighter-hoth/

This is a blog by a US Army Officer. In this entry, he gives reasons why the Empire could have beaten the Rebels at Hoth, but in fact failed so hard, Rebels may have been able to win at Hoth. To recap Hoth, the Rebels are hidden on a icy and somewhat mountainous planet called Hoth. The Rebels have the Ion cannon, which was vital in their escape, and a shield generator. They are hidden in a valley, flanked by mountains. The Empire eventually found them. And what did they do? Send top heavy, slow and somewhat inefficient ATAT walkers at them. Had the Rebels set up traps, mines etc, the Empire would have lose so much, it would have been a victory for the Rebels. Vader also killed a high ranking Imperial officer, weakening the Empire further. The Empire had no air cover. To say that the Empire is efficient is far from the truth. Pro also says that the Empire left alone people. I assume Pro means "humans" because aliens were generally mistreated no matter what. For example, (https://www.starwars.com/news/barely-tolerable-alien-henchmen-of-the-empire-part-1) while Thrawn was important in the Empire, they source still noted he was an enigma and that the Empire was a bad place to live in if you were different. So, not only did I prove that the Galaxy is better under the Jedi, it is much, much worse under the Sith

Pro: "This is a sweeping oversimplification." On how the Jedi are selfless and Sith selfish.

It truly isn't. If it is, then generally Jedi are selfless, which is much better for Pro. For example, in KOTOR, all the dark side options involve doing evil or immoral things, such as kill for whatever reason, and often no reason at all. Jedi options, however, involve giving credits to NPCs, and other generally kind thing to do. The same applies to KOTOR 2, although it is a little gray. Then Pro says something interesting. He basically goes, "the Sith aren't selfish, they just thing about only themselves". Pro says the Sith can be anything, but I proven that the Sith are "trapped" by their emotions and then there are Sith like Vader, who was pretty much Palps lapdog. There are Sith like Nihilus and Sion, all were slaves to the dark side. So Pro is wrong here.

On the value of life, Pro says this:

There is no basis for this assertion. 
The Jedi code on the other hand tells you to be a robot.
Vader killed his men quite a bit. He didn't trust them, and probably killed more off screen. They regard almost no one. I disagree that the Sith code says to be free and follow their passions. Almost all the Sith been blatantly evil, we don't see them ever be free. Vader wasn't. Sion wasn't. Vader isn't free because he fell, and he went out of his way to make other life's worse. We see a NPC on Korriban in KOTOR basically say that the Sith don't have compassion for others. Uthar kills a pupil in the Sith Academy, and said that it is normal to kill other Sith. Also, Pro: "The Sith have regard for whatever they personally regard." This can be treated as a concession, as Pro admitted they are selfish.

If I handed you a lightsaber and sent you back to the 1820s would you start freeing slaves? I doubt it.
Would you? Imagine how America was back then. Imagine how many will struggle to survive. Also irrelevant and dropped my point.

Wrong, Anakin thought she was cheating with Obi Wan so he choked her a bit but specifically made sure not to kill her. Keep in mind for Anakin this was like finding out your older brother has been boning your wife. Padme died from emotional shock plus the stress of childbirth overriding her nervous system and causing her to shut down.

I don't believe he ever thought that. I believe he thought that Padme betrayed him, but not in the sense of love. Anakin had a moment of black and white thinking, and had he had control of his feelings, he would have not killed Padme. He wanted to protect Padme, and this led to his fall the the dark side. https://www.starwars.com/news/6-of-palpatines-key-manipulations 

Here, a official source states that Sidious abused Anakin's fear of Padme dying to turn him to the dark side. This is why he fell, it is canon. Anakin was already Sith when he attacked/killed Padme. And he was wrong to assume Padme was cheating on him. Fear, jealousy, all these emotions caused trouble for Anakin. The Council was horrible, but the "control your emotions" was spot on.

Yes he did an yes he did. first of all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL_PDgczHJc This video is about why Hayden Christensen played the character well but it's also insightful about Anakin's mentality.
Secondly, Anakin was considered a hero both by the republic and the empire. He was a war hero both as Anakin and Vader who saved countless lives.
(This source also says that Palps manipulated Anakin into having Padme dying dreams) 
Anakin had real problems, but this doesn't address to what I said. This video basically says that Anakin was manipulated by a evil old man and played to his emotions. The video also says Sidious was evil. Then the video says that Anakin had a horrible life after and lost anything and it's his emotions and Sidious's fault. Vadar also ordered Aldaraan's destruction. He did evil things and I doubt Pro would call someone like Himmler from the Nazi army good because he saved a bunch of Nazi soldiers's lives and was a war hero, as even war heroes can be evil.

Anakin killing those younglings was the equivalent of killing a bunch of 8 year olds who were bred to be emotionless terrorists from birth by ISIS. They where emotionless little monsters who were systematically conditioned to be psychopaths.
 Anakin had emotions. And did the younglings ever say they wanted to be killed? And over the Canon, Jedi enjoy their lives and it vastly improved their lives. Even if this is truth, Anakin did not kill them in mercy. Even then, why didn't Anakin take them in? Voter's, answer this question.

Vader choked a officer for calling the Force wizard powers basically. Not sure if he killed him though. Vader killed a Rebel soldier at the beginning, and they movie clearly paints it as evil, but he wasn't Sith or part of the Empire. Vadar also killed the Admiral who was supposed to lead in Hoth, but that would lead to thousands of soldiers lost at Hoth. Vadar liked to kill failing officers. Why didn't he replace them? Because he's evil.

In this debate: I have proven that the Empire was a worst place to live in as an alien
That Vadar was responsible for billions of deaths
That Sidious was responsible for Anakin's fall
And that, generally, the Sith are pretty fucking evil.

Ergo, the Sith fit the Evil definition more, and Jedi, Good. Pro did not have much in the way of sources, while I had official sources and those with military background for the Hoth snippet.

Vote for Earth.
Round 3
Forfeited
Published:
Pro has forfeited. Vote for Con. 

Added:
This actually explains the left and right political ideologies very well. It is surprising how similar science fiction/fantasy is to real life. Although, Disney would not agree with this assessment, believe it or not, but the Sith are the left and the Jedi are the right. Unfortunately, they purchased the rights to SW after it was a hit and there is no going back.
It is not good to go off emotion, because you cannot weigh the consequences of your actions, think clearly, cognitively, or critically.
That is why jurors who have some sort of emotional attachment to the plaintiff or the defendant are never selected.
#2
Added:
This debate is straight up catnip for a Star Wars geek. Lovin' it.
Honestly you've both been contributing some interesting and worthy arguments.
#1
#3
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
This debate comes down to the fact that Pro keeps trying to explain that the Sith had their reasons to be bad... So what?
Con proves from every angle apparent that both sides had their reasons to do their bad but the Jedi blatantly are the more good-intended side in net-outcome and based on consequential moral compass are the good side beyond a shadow of a doubt.
The sources of Con were actual star wars verified stuff but Pro relied entirely on YouTube videos which were either essentially pirated or just based on biased outlook of a vlogger and on top of that sourced a quote of the Sith Code from a site that lets anyone upload quotes and only verifies it later (goodreads.com)
Aside from that issue, Pro continually defends the Sith as having reasons behind their acts but is being reasonable inherently good? Sometimes the irrational move is the good one. In contrast, Con only uses rationale behind acts to further delve into the morals of Jedi including peace and fairness as their utmost priorities.
#2
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
No information
#1
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
I felt the arguments on both sides were equally convincing. Mostly I found that Pro and Con were talking past each other, not putting in enough time actually addressing and refuting the other's arguments. Also, I don't think posting a youtube video and saying "watch" is a valid form of argumentation. A video can be a source for an argument, but shouldn't be presented - in whole - as an argument itself.
Sources, spelling, and grammar were equal on both sides.
Conduct goes to Con for Pro's forfeit.