Instigator / Pro
Points: 8

Magick isn't real

Finished

The voting period has ended

After 2 votes the winner is ...
Polytheist-Witch
Debate details
Publication date
Last update
Category
Religion
Time for argument
Two days
Voting system
Open voting
Voting period
One week
Point system
Four points
Rating mode
Rated
Characters per argument
30,000
Contender / Con
Points: 11
Description
No information
Round 1
Published:
Magick is in essence, the art of influencing reality through metaphysical means. To supernaturally induce effects upon reality with ones mind. By the end of this debate, I hope to convince my opponent that there is no concept in metaphysics which are valid save for those which correlate to actual physics, and nothing can truly be "supernatural" because everything is a part of nature by the very virtue of the fact that it exists. I used to be a polytheist like my opponent, and I studied the curriculum of Grey School as well as carrying out independent research. I am fairly informed in matters of the occult so although I do not know the exact angle Con will take, I am confident I will be able to address whatever constitutes her outlook on the subject.
The "occult" means that which is hidden, arcane or hidden knowledge. The occult was the science of the past, and science itself is derived from the refinement of those studies and methodologies which were deemed "Witchcraft" and "Sorcery" in their times. Examples include alchemy (chemistry) wortcunning (botany/pharmaceutical medicine) and occult philosophy and metaphysics (many elements of which show striking resemblance to concepts within theoretical physics and modern scientific thought). These "primordial sciences" were considered occult because few people understood them, and nobody who understood them understood the forces which governed the properties of the natural materials phenomena they worked with. Therefore they associated them with the "supernatural".
As science has evolved, we have learned that everything is natural. Just as we have learned that lightning is not creating by an angry bearded man in the sky, but my electrically charged oscillations in the atmosphere, we have learned that the mysterious and magical properties of chemicals are governed by physical laws which can be ascertained. Thus Alchemy and Theism have been rendered obsolete, as have all metaphysical philosophies and practices, by science. The idea that you can influence reality with your mind, has evolved into the idea that a wave/particle can be altered by observation, which I would argue is not true but I'll save that for later if you happen to bring it up. To sum up this introductory argument, much of the occult is primitive science wrapped up in superstition and misunderstanding and the rest pure superstition.
Published:
I am not sure we have the same definition for magic. I consider it the working with spirits or energy to produce a result. Perhaps that is what you are saying only in a different way but you seem to have been a practitioner of high magic which is why you insist on using the "k" spelling. Like yoga or Thai Chi I believe energy can be moved and directed through the body and out into the world. Positive thoughts and action produce the like. I don't think any of what I do is occult or hidden. Most people used to work the land and interact with the wights of the land. I don't engage in alchemy but plants having medicinal properties is not magic or supernatural. Granted plants are also used to what would be magic purposes by witches. I doubt people outside the practice would wash their porch with brick dust to keep out negativity. Spells to me are like prayers. Putting the intent out may or may not yield a result. Obviously I have found these things work for me or I would quit doing it.  I don't believe bearded men make lightning, sorry to disappoint you, or that gods have anything to do with magic. I have no problem with my practice being viewed as superstition, fake or stupid. I don't expect anyone to live the way I do. The notion I don't understand or respect science and nature principles is a falsehood. One has nothing to do with the other. 
Round 2
Published:
I am not sure we have the same definition for magic. I consider it the working with spirits or energy to produce a result.

Our definitions are more or less the same, where we differ is my emphasis on the mind. When you say "energy" you are referring to metaphysical forces and spirits are also metaphysical in nature. Combine our two ways of wording it and you have a fairly complete definition.

you seem to have been a practitioner of high magic which is why you insist on using the "k" spelling.
When I was into magick I considered myself a "grey wizard". I dabbled in pretty much everything and towards the end of my belief in magick I was leaning more towards sorcery (as in dark magick/low magick). I learned to spell magick with a K from Grey School as a way of distinguishing between real magick and showmanship magic.

Like yoga or Thai Chi I believe energy can be moved and directed through the body and out into the world.
Yoga and Tai Chi have very real benefits and chi/prana is a very real thing. The thing is though, it is something which can be understood scientifically. What these things really are is bio-electricity. The ancient people who developed these techniques did not understand it scientifically, but they knew it was there and developed exercises to promote a healthy flow of electrical energy in the body as well as strengthen it. The Chakras actually correspond to organs in the body, for example the third eye Chakra which is actually the pineal gland. The ancient indians knew about the pineal gland and understood is surprisingly well but could only deal with it in a spiritual context because that is how humans think by default without education in scientific thought.

Positive thoughts and action produce the like.
This kind of thing is almost in the realm of pure superstition. Positive thoughts can have a tremendous effect on your own mind and body, and cause you to act in ways that yield positive results, but they cannot directly alter the outside world in the way you are thinking. The closest approximation to this is the brainwaves you give off being picked up on by plants and animals. This is why you can sometimes get a "vibe" from people or sense someone is watching you. If your thoughts could actually alter reality, then there wouldn't be so many "positive" people getting negative results and "negative" people getting positive results on a regular basis. To put it simply, positive thinking doesn't bring the malnourished African child food. Only physically bringing the food can bring the food.

Spells to me are like prayers. Putting the intent out may or may not yield a result. Obviously I have found these things work for me or I would quit doing it.

Has it ever worked in a spontaneous and independent manner without you actually taking action to see your intention come to fruition other than by casting a spell?

 I don't believe bearded men make lightning, sorry to disappoint you, or that gods have anything to do with magic.
What type of polytheism do you believe in?

I have no problem with my practice being viewed as superstition, fake or stupid
But aren't you worried that people's negative thoughts will make it less real? (just kidding)

The notion I don't understand or respect science and nature principles is a falsehood. One has nothing to do with the other. 
I don't assume that you don't respect science or natural law, just that you do not apply it to your understanding of metaphysical concepts/spirituality. You are mistaken if you think they are not related, spirituality is the originator of philosophy and metaphysics, which is the originator of science. Science itself evolved from philosophy, metaphysics, and various occult practices such as alchemy and it all started with humans questioning the nature of reality and finding ways of contextualizing their existence, which culminated into spirituality and religion. Science is our most up to date and accurate way of questioning reality and coming to conclusions about it.

Published:
Yoga and Tai Chi have very real benefits and chi/prana is a very real thing. The thing is though, it is something which can be understood scientifically. What these things really are is bio-electricity. The ancient people who developed these techniques did not understand it scientifically, but they knew it was there and developed exercises to promote a healthy flow of electrical energy in the body as well as strengthen it. The Chakras actually correspond to organs in the body, for example the third eye Chakra which is actually the pineal gland. The ancient indians knew about the pineal gland and understood is surprisingly well but could only deal with it in a spiritual context because that is how humans think by default without education in scientific thought.

You have no idea what impact my spell work or witchcraft has on my well being scientifically or otherwise. No one has ever bothered to test it. Know why? Science has nothing to do with religion, spiritually or emotions. 

This kind of thing is almost in the realm of pure superstition. Positive thoughts can have a tremendous effect on your own mind and body, and cause you to act in ways that yield positive results, but they cannot directly alter the outside world in the way you are thinking. The closest approximation to this is the brainwaves you give off being picked up on by plants and animals. This is why you can sometimes get a "vibe" from people or sense someone is watching you. If your thoughts could actually alter reality, then there wouldn't be so many "positive" people getting negative results and "negative" people getting positive results on a regular basis. To put it simply, positive thinking doesn't bring the malnourished African child food. Only physically bringing the food can bring the food.
Bullcrap. My behavior directly effects those around me. I have worked with people my whole life. Want to quit using drugs once out of rehab? Don't hang out with drug users to start. Not sure what you expected to do in your practice but witchcraft doesn't create things like food cause you want it. Or anything like that. 

Has it ever worked in a spontaneous and independent manner without you actually taking action to see your intention come to fruition other than by casting a spell?
I don't know any witch who does and spell and no leg work with it. But spell work isn't to effect my behavior. 

What type of polytheism do you believe in?
Hard polytheism. All the gods are unique, living beings. 

But aren't you worried that people's negative thoughts will make it less real? (just kidding)
No nor do I care if people avoid me for my choices. 

I don't assume that you don't respect science or natural law, just that you do not apply it to your understanding of metaphysical concepts/spirituality. 
Why would I? I don't take my car to fixed by a psychiatrist. 

 Science itself evolved from philosophy, metaphysics, and various occult practices such as alchemy and it all started with humans questioning the nature of reality and finding ways of contextualizing their existence, which culminated into spirituality and religion. Science is our most up to date and accurate way of questioning reality and coming to conclusions about it.
Maybe at some point but not anymore. And my spiritual path has no bearing on gravity existing. Science exist whether we do anything to learn about it or not. You lost faith. Not my problem. 
Round 3
Forfeited
Published:
I am sorry this didn't have the energy you wanted. I think not putting it in science just lost the momentum you had for it. At least I can say I have done a debate now. 
No comments yet
#2
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
I agree with Pro but Con stole the argument for me and neither of them used sources.
#1
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
Con's tone and attitude to Pro is horrendous in Round 2. That being said, Pro concedes that part of what Science evolved from is metaphysics and also concedes that science is a way to understand Magick.
What is clear to me is both endorse tai chi and such arts and both believe in the benefits. Pro says that Magick is not real because it can be explained by science and Con says that Magick is real only when it is scientifically valid (they don't use these words but they admit it can't make food and other things).
So, to me Pro insufficiently proved Magick false while conceding that science is a result of it and expansion on it in terms of explaining how or why it works but not that it disproves Magick.