Instigator
Points: 14

Marx's analysis of capitalism was mostly accurate.

Finished

The voting period has ended

After 2 votes the winner is ...
It's a tie!
Debate details
Publication date
Last update
Category
Economics
Time for argument
Three days
Voting system
Open voting
Voting period
One week
Point system
Four points
Rating mode
Rated
Characters per argument
30,000
Contender
Points: 14
Description
No information
Round 1
Published:
Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit.

Before we even get into Marx, a few things need to be said about Capitalism. Capitalism requires a state without exception and it creates and upholds a socio-economic hierarchy inherently.  It requires a state to protect private property and to mediate between the interests of the beorgiosie and the proletariat primarily, among other things. It always creates an established hierarchy (an aristocracy and peasantry essentially) because the means of production consist of finite real-world resources and the more land and resources are already owned the less economic freedom and opportunity there is for those who don't already own them.

This means that capitalism always ends up as a plutocracy at the end of the day. It doesn't matter if you're a libertarian, an anarcho-capitalist, or whatever else, capitalism in the real world is a system where rich people own everything and the masses work to make them more rich. If you try to deny this I will give you the same treatment a capitalist would give me when I try to explain the difference between communism and early-stage Marxian Socialism which has decayed into a bureaucracy. 

So what did Marx have to say about Capitalism? That it is based on exploitation and irrationality primarily.

Since private ownership means that there will be those who own and those who don't, and the more is already owned the less opportunity there is for those who don't own, that leaves the majority of people no option but to serve the wealthy and make them even more rich as a result. Thus the very system itself is based on benefiting the few at the expense of the many, and by it's very nature keeps those at the top at the top and those at the bottom at the bottom in most cases. There is room for exceptions, but most of the important land and resources have been controlled by the "robber baron elites"  since the beginning.
The above is more of a "big picture" observation, but the vast majority of businesses in general require some form of exploitation. Business usually entails paying workers less than the value they produce and the employer having the employees by the balls because the average person is forced to enter a "consensual contract" to make someone else rich with their own hard work just to put food on the table.

Capitalism is also irrational. Since the vast majority of economic activity is predicated on the pursuit of personal profit, and since the more capital you have the easier it is to generate profit, the management of resources is essentially left up to what rich people deem to be the most profitable investment. How the environment or civilization is affected is secondary to the pursuit of profit in capitalism. The environment takes a back seat to Mr. Rockefeller's oil stocks and to rampant, pointless hyper-consumerism. The lives of children take a back seat to western economic imperialism as America blows up civilians and invades poor countries to steal their resources.


Published:
waiting for Type1 to post his full argument beyond his introduction... Go ahead Typo, I'll wait.
Round 2
Published:
Voters, keep in mind the poor conduct displayed by con here. This lazy response is indicative of what kind of effort she has put into understanding Marx, yet she automatically rejects Marxism on no basis whatsoever other than years of western propaganda. Given that the vast majority of voters here are capitalists with similar biases, I do not expect to be voted the winner, but one thing you should keep in mind is that being a cunt is worse conduct wise than calling someone one.

Since con has so far provided absolutely nothing in the ways of an argument, and the argument I already posted does display a Marxist attitude towards capitalism, it is safe to say she has failed to even dispute, nevermind debunk some very basic Marxist ideas about capitalism. If you cannot even engage me on the most basic level of Marxist thinking, then you may as well just forfeit the entire debate. Your round one argument was already equivalent to a forfeit anyway.



Published:

So may criticism of Typo was direct.  He did not really post an argument. Reader’s should note this since that’s a requirement.  To win an argument you have to post one. He did throw out a lot of five dollar words and state some things that may sound intelligent but he recycled the most basic sum Of Marx’s position in my view.  This is all.

It was not a criticism of capitalism or Marx’s criticism.  It was just a rehashing on the first chapter of the Communist Manifesto which was one of the worst document I’ve read and and not one that really describes any proof for Marxs views.

No proof was included in his argument.

Trying to create an ‘Iron Man’ argument here as Pro did create a light case.

Here are the assertions he lays out without evidence:

Capitalism create a hierarchy, inhibits freedom, exploitive, irrational, Zero sum and is an initiator of the Hedonic Treadmill.  True to the religious form from Marx Pro just asserts these without explanation, makes no arguments to establish these statements are true and so insults the reader.

I’ll make an effort not t insult any readers.

First, my basic thoughts on the assertions Pro has spouted agressively are caused by capitalism: hierarchy, force to prevent freedom, exploitation, irrationality and the feel that life is just a zero sum game are all features of every primate collective here on earth.  As common as breathing, not features of capitalism. A description of reality. If this is Marx’s ‘analysis’ of capitalism what was it based on? Where is the data that confirms capitalism is the source of these features of human life.

To agree with Pro’s position you have to think both that Marx’s view of capitalism was an accurate description and that most things he said were accurate.  ‘Most’ is a broad taboo thing to say in many fields as it’s nearly impossible to establish.. Capitalism is less a system than a description of trade and markets.  It doesn’t exploit people since it’s just how they behave, rationality is only seen here from the outside since it was not a created thing and does not create a zero sum game since it is just a description and there are multiple markets to engage in not just one.  I’ll again encouge Pro to build a case about Marx’s opinion which is a large order, Pro has not bothered to describe it beyond the common cliches.

Round 3
Forfeited
Published:
Arguments extended.
Added:
--> @Titanium
What about what I said about lucid dreaming?
Was that the second paragraph?
If so I don't really have too much control instead use it to pass time when I am bored. When I link it to a specific song in a video game I create narrative which I would consider an improvement. Sure I become the main character but I do improve character development like with Devil May Cry 5.
Meditation is not going to work for me. I have tried several and almost for a week but hasn't helped. Even when I was calm I hardly got anything from it or didn't feel like it improved my mood long enough to be useful.
#60
Added:
--> @TheRealNihilist
"Opposite when I speak about how frustrated about afterwards I just feel worse."
To me it's gospel but an effect can take a month or more. For someone who has difficultly a lot longer. We are all one with nature but that means something very different to zen types apparently. Neo, 'realize there is no you' type thing.
Meditation is some high level mental shite I expect. I'm sure you can get some great use out of it. All I've managed to do is fly which I can barely control and end up plummeting to the ground usually. I get it occasionally and am plagued by sleep paralysis. There are a lot of odd common sleep disorders.
Contender
#59
Added:
--> @Titanium
Does lucid dreaming count?
I pretty much do it every single time I am bored or when I am fueled by something else. If I don't know what to do I can lucid dream and if I have music playing I can lucid dream to that. One example would be the trailer of Devil May Cry 5. I lucid dream being apart of the action while still having my eyes open. Don't know if this helps or not or if this is meditation.
The lucid dreaming does not improve me because when I am out of it I realise that wasn't real and I have to restart the music in order to get the lucid dream again in order to finish the story I have created. I think have been lucid dreaming most of my life so I think that is why I have been so accustomed to it and why meditation you are asking about doesn't work. I don't know if lucid dreaming can be considered meditation for me if it does make my mind more stable for the time of lucid dreaming but it tends to wear off really quickly when I am done with.
#58
Added:
--> @Titanium
"I have spent 10 min just frustrated in some aggravating thought I was having but still feel better afterwards."
Opposite when I speak about how frustrated about afterwards I just feel worse.
"If suddenly it becomes a major fad I'd probably guess it was the whole green thing but if it baffled me I definitely would... spend my afternoons gardening."
Can't imagine myself being one with nature. That would be so boring.
#57
Added:
--> @TheRealNihilist
Yes, It's very difficult. Luckily prayer is a similar practice. I have spent 10 min just frustrated in some aggravating thought I was having but still feel better afterwards. Currently, I can normally clear my head. I do like mindfulness practice that encourages you to just observe your thought and emotions they arrive like an event in the brain. This form of meta cognition makes it much easier to let the thought or emotion go. Other forms of meditation encourage you to focus on another positive but I that it more difficult as trying not to think a thought does. It's much easier try to focus on a thought like you're observing an event in the brain. It disappears fairly quickly.
I take your point, but I like trying to understand why things have mass appeal. I doubt gardening will suddenly take off but some 'gurus' have tried to market it in retreats and some hippies like it. If suddenly it becomes a major fad I'd probably guess it was the whole green thing but if it baffled me I definitely would... spend my afternoons gardening.
Contender
#56
Added:
--> @Titanium
"I practice mindfulness meditation 20min twice a day. I can't recommend it enough to remain clear headed, calm and peaceful. It's how I recaptured they 'spirituality' I lost from my life several years ago. I clearly have a need for it so I highly recommend it."
Tried it several times but failed.
"I'm normally curious why we like what we like or why things sell. If I look at something for a long time it's usually because it puzzles me in some way."
People like it and they sell. It take someone to actually have an interest in what they are buying for it to sell. This can be a video-games which I have been playing for the majority of my life and newer video-games would appeal to me because of my past experiences with them. I am not going to buy gardening equipment because I find no enjoyment or reason doing gardening.
#55
Added:
--> @TheRealNihilist
I practice mindfulness meditation 20min twice a day. I can't recommend it enough to remain clear headed, calm and peaceful. It's how I recaptured they 'spirituality' I lost from my life several years ago. I clearly have a need for it so I highly recommend it.
Yes, nice mix. I like to play a few games a year and Nier Automata is on my list. I also like to hit the top, selling movies show genres and music etc. I'm normally curious why we like what we like or why things sell. If I look at something for a long time it's usually because it puzzles me in some way.
Contender
#54
Added:
--> @Titanium
Isn't that the same thing you posted on good music?
I did see it.
"When I realize I'm depressing recently I listen to this some. sit back, close your eyes "
I can't really do this. Have tried to relax but can't really. My mind wanders. I think I can only really relax if I am tired but I don't want to exercise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdpvj_iVAFk
Reminds me on Nier Automata.
Here is my one that resembles it enjoy. I have a bunch because I really find the one that I am looking for but I can give my favourite one that I remember from Nier Automata.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGFOvuOxwuU
Found one that closely resembles what you gave me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRHsEWIC8PI&list=PLc_RJ2laVnkAwYhZ7V8t4n4y-U1zd0fOj
Should get you to a playlist of all Nier Automata songs. I will also put this in good music.
#53
Added:
--> @TheRealNihilist
no proof. It's just something I'd read. I went to wikipedia to confirm it is all. When I realize I'm depressing recently I listen to this some. sit back, close your eyes and try it at 0:50:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdpvj_iVAFk
Contender
#52
Added:
--> @Titanium
"I was not bold describing my error because humans have trouble expressing when they've made mistakes."
I guess it would optimism's faults I guess.
"Pessimism is a philosophy supported more broadly in Europe."
Any proof?
I don't think it is.
"GL in your debate, I'll check it out."
The debate was over a while ago and a pro lifer has voted against me.
#51
Added:
I was expressing personal preference. I was not bold describing my error because humans have trouble expressing when they've made mistakes. Nihilism was start of my progress from Christianity and the clip was just my favorite show which it related to our discussion her.. Pessimism is a philosophy supported more broadly in Europe. GL in your debate, I'll check it out.
Contender
#50
Added:
--> @Titanium
I am currently watching it and realising yeah this is how I think as well, Thank you for reminding me how depressed I am.
#49
Added:
--> @Titanium
No you weren't you were saying Mark Twain was better without saying you got it wrong.
"I saw it was a Nietzsche quote base on my first google search."
Shame that you forgot about it when you typed in Mark Twain.
"He was a philosopher that heavily infuluenced my life so it's sad that I'd confuse a quote like that. Still"
I like him too. Not really influenced by him too much (because I hardly knowing anything about philosophy) but he is a philosopher that I relatively know. Guess it must be because of nihilism.
"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oX2xFo7JA4"
I can't believe you have a link about pessimism. I am losing a debate because I am getting voted against by pro-lifers on DDO. Thank you for reminding me.
#48
Added:
--> @TheRealNihilist
I wan acknowledging a mistake. I saw it was a Nietzsche quote base on my first google search. He was a philosopher that heavily infuluenced my life so it's sad that I'd confuse a quote like that. Still, modern media wins:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oX2xFo7JA4
Contender
#47
Added:
--> @Titanium
"Mark Twain was far superior to Nietzsche so it just stands to reason the he made the quote. These are just facts bro."
Mark Twain did not say that. I typed in what you quoted from Mark Twain and it found Friedrich Nietzsche said it. If Mark Twain did say it it would be on the site. Mine are actual facts sis.
#46
#2
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
Completely unproven by both sides. I found no reason to even remotely regard one single argument.
#1
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
1.) pro must outline what the analysis of capitalism is by Marx (he only vaguely does this).
2.) pro must show this analysis matches the reality of actual capitalism (he barely - if at all does this).
Con points out that pro hasn’t established his position - and I agree. Therefore I cannot award arguments to pro. However con has to make a case also that marx was not accurate - this was marginal only by con. Con argues that the objections Marx raised are issues with humans in general not with capitalism.
As he mostly just asserts these, just as he accuses pro of doing - I have scant reason to rule in cons favor either. As a reader I’m left with not knowing whether Marx was mostly accurate or not - so I’m forced to award arguments as a draw.
Conduct - I normall award points automatically for the forfeit - but as con was petulant, and didn’t raise an argument in round 1 - this balances out, so I am forced to award conduct as a tie.