Points: 11

CNN IS FAKE NEWS

Finished

The voting period has ended

After 4 votes the winner is ...
RationalMadman
Debate details
Publication date
Last update
Category
Politics
Time for argument
Three days
Voting system
Open voting
Voting period
One month
Point system
Four points
Rating mode
Rated
Characters per argument
30,000
Points: 28
Description
So this is mainly a tribute to the disproven lies of "russia collusion" that came to a sad end for libtards a couple days ago. WhAt A sHoCk!
I am arguing CNN is fake news. The main reason is they claim to be unbiased when they clearly are bias AF, but also i will present some other reasons like the Covington kid, etc.
Round 1
Published:
Collusion-  All they did was accuse trump of collusion 2 years and making absurd theories that all turned out to be a complete lie.

Bias- Don Lemon, Chris Cuomo, those guys claim to be unbiased, when clearly they have a very leftist view point on everything.

Covington- They called Sandman a racist and made a bad name out of him and ruined his reputation, which is why they are getting sued.  They made assumptions based on a 2 minute video, and did not have all the facts and context.

Smollet- They jumped on smollet's story because they so desperately wanted it to be true.  Don Lemon said he was "texting him to see how he feels" and every CNN host felt bad for him and attributed the alleged attacks to racism and Trump.  Of course they didn't know if that was true, and it turned out to be a hoax.. Once again, they didn't have all the facts.

I would like my opponent to provide some counter evidence and generally this was a starting point, as I will get more in depth later rounds.
Published:
Alright, so I think we need to start with what 'fake news' is and isn't. The reason this is important is that there is even a BBC-backed secondary definition of Fake News that is... Well, ironically it fits their second definition of Fake News but according to the definition I want to go with and which I'll back up as being the proper definition, ends up being 'accidentally false News'. Of course, since I am genuinely a Progressive Social Democrat who believes in quite a few things CNN says, I do believe that even in the looser 'accidentally false News' version of Fake News, the resolution still is false but I want to be clear that in this debate (also blatant from Pro's R1) Fake News is the following:

(This source is not any newspaper or biased media, it's a definition derived very genuinely from the Trump-meme definitions and the true meaning of the term 'fake news' in this context):
Lots of things you read online especially in your social media feeds may appear to be true, often is not. Fake news is news, stories or hoaxes created to deliberately misinform or deceive readers. Usually, these stories are created to either influence people’s views, push a political agenda or cause confusion and can often be a profitable business for online publishers. Fake news stories can deceive people by looking like trusted websites or using similar names and web addresses to reputable news organisations.

So, it is very important we stick to the 'deliberately' and not accidental version of Fake News, even though I as a Prog-soc-dem do believe CNN only has had this 'accidental fake news' in precisely as rare a percentage as the amount that Pro posted is relative to the entirety of CNN at the time.

CNN states its mission to be (on a blog that it owns):

Our mission is to create the finest possible news product and to present hard-breaking, national, and international news, as it unfolds. We deliver unparalleled perspectives across multiple categories, including political, medical, financial, technology, entertainment, and more.

At CNN, we know our news and want to share it. Our vision is for the network to be broadcasted to countries all over the world in English and the various regional languages. The journalists at CNN work around the clock, providing the latest news 24 hours a day, seven days a week. We provide live coverage and analysis of news across numerous categories. At CNN, our goal is to deliver accurate information to our viewers with speed so that they are well informed at all times.

Whether or not this is true, what I notice Pro lacks entirely is the 'deliberate' part of Fake News. CNN has thousands of News stories and Pro is focusing on one or two to find them to be Fake News, this leads me to the Fake News Kritik:

Fake News Kritik: All News may actually be true and the News disproving it may be the Fake News.

This is impossible to disprove but undeniable as it is proven true by basic logic of what the burden-of-proof skips over when proving something to be Fake News. This means that I can win purely because no matter how unrealistic the conspiracy is, it could always be that even if Pro proved CNN to have entirely false stories, the proof would require us to believe that the 'proof against' the stories isn't the Fake News. Thus, Pro is blackmailed into looking for a source of 'truth' on News that isn't possibly biased by profit motives or audience-pleasing and to prove that level of objectivity (which Pro demands from CNN but won't be demanding from the sources he uses) is nigh-impossible and I will win no matter what.

Good Luck Pro, prove that CNN is fake news.
Round 2
Published:
Thank you con for responding.  To the overview of arguments--

Fake News Definition

I apologize as I did not provide a definition in the first round.  While I somewhat agree with your definition "Fake news is news, stories or hoaxes created to deliberately misinform or deceive readers.", I do not think this is the only definition.  Since their is no one set definition for fake news, it is up to interpretation.  I believe fake news can also mean repeatedly putting out false information without having the facts or context around it.  I will be using both definitions in this debate.  

Fake News Kritik

I agree with con that evidence has to be provided to disprove the stories that appear to be fake news.

Arguments---"Objective Reporting"

This is my primary example of fake news.  CNN claims to be "fair", "unbiased", "objective" journalists.  However, this is clearly not the case.  Anyone who reads a CNN article or turns on their night cable news can tell everybody has a leftist bias.  Even though this is already evident, I have a study to back it up.  Harvard researchers found that 90% of trump coverage was negative, and they barely had any pro-trump guests on. (https://stonecoldtruth.com/the-numbers-dont-lie-proof-of-fake-news-confirmed/)


Repeated Disingenuous Reporting 

A Covington Catholic School kid, Nic Sandman, was labeled a racist, anti-native american, and CNN made a bad name out of him and ruined his reputation, which is why they are getting sued.  They made assumptions based on a 2 minute video, and did not have all the facts and context.

Smollett- CNN jumped on Jussie's story right when it came out, and were making all kinds of absurd claims about Trump supporters and this story.  Don LaMon even bragged about how he frequently texts Jussie and texted him recently to "see how he is doing".  Again, two incidents pretty close together, and this one was an alleged attack in which CNN did not have all the facts.  And it came out to be a hoax.  

Russia Collusion- The past 2 years CNN has feeding its viewers hypothesis, conspiracy theories, and alleged claims about Trump colluding with Russia in the 2020 election.  It all turned out to be false.  Furthermore, CNN producer John Bonifield admitted that the whole Russia thing was "bullshi*t", they didn't have any "big giant proof" and that they were talking about Russia collusion for ratings. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdP8TiKY8dE&t=)

Even Van Jones, one of the most far-left, hate trump contributors and former co-host on CNN, was caught on undercover video saying "Russia Collusion is just a big nothing-burger."

Jim Acosta has also spread fake news, one example is his statement about the migrant caravans in a press conference. (https://www.infowars.com/proof-cnns-acosta-is-fake-news-caravan-is-an-invasion/)

Conclusion

I have shown evidence that CNN is fake news.  I am looking forward to RM's response.  

I have had some people tell me that in order for CNN to be fake news, I have to show more than 50% of stories are fake news.  This is not true.  I am not saying every CNN story is fake news, I am saying they have repeated fake news stories without facts/context, and have certain topics that are fake news.  Viewership at CNN after it came out there was no collusion dropped largely, in some cases up to 50%.  This should say something about what viewers think about CNN.  When there are repeated instances fake news is spread, viewers can not trust the network in everything they say.  When a network becomes not widely trusted among viewers (this is pretty subjective and generally speaking), this can be considered among many as "fake news."

So when I say "CNN is fake news", I am changing that for the sake of people's technicality to "CNN sometimes spreads fake news stories/topics that can lead to them not being trusted"


Also completely unrelated to the debate but pewdiepie is down 60k subs to t series and t series needs to be stopped so if u have not already plz sub to pewds plz and thx

Published:
When we see CNN's mission statement, it openly admits it aims to deliver fast news to many people. Not that its ethos is to patiently wait for all things to have concluded before pleasing its audience. This ethos would mean indeed that whether we are suspecting Trump of working with Russia or not, the fact that they keep you up-to-date while the suspicions grow is a sign that they live up to their 'inform fast based on incomplete information and analyse the odds of the situation' ethos rather than 'wait until all is revealed and then come in the finale to report' ethos.

Nick Sandmann sued The Washington Post, not CNN. Here is a non-fake-news CNN report on the matter: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/19/media/nick-sandmann-washington-post-lawsuit/index.html Here is another news source that agrees that it's the Washington Post being sued, not CNN: https://www.dailysignal.com/2019/03/04/how-covingtons-nick-sandmann-could-win-his-defamation-claim-against-washington-post/

You just delivered your own definition fake news, but I'm not about to commit an appeal-to-hypocrisy fallacy, merely pointing it out as it amused me and voters should take note how easy it is to do mistakenly deliver what may well be false as the truth.

The definition of 'Fake News' that Pro is revising and demanding us to accept is completely biased towards Pro's side of the debate and moves the goalposts entirely (not partially). Pro literally admits that he is 'believes it also can be' that definition but I not only sourced mine, I am going to show you a few more sources:

In fact, fake news has been around for centuries. In 1814, Charles de Berenger disguised himself as a Bourbon officer and appeared in Dover to announce that Napoleon had been been killed by the Prussians. He sent a semaphore telegraph saying the same to the Admiralty in London, knowing it would be picked up by the press. De Berenger then rode from Dover to London, stopping off at hostelries along the way, and handing out handbills also relaying the dramatic development.

Three French “officers” were later seen in London celebrating a Bourbon triumph, and a commemorative parade was even held on London Bridge.

The price of gilts soared on the news, prompting de Berenger and his pals, including the three dressed as French officers, to sell the government bonds they’d bought.

Subsequently, the government announced there’d been no such victory, and that Napoleon was very much alive. Gilts came crashing down, and de Berenger and his co-conspirators were arrested and charged with fraud.

^ This article analyses what Trump means by Fake News and how it simply is the equivalent of Media-level Fraud (which requires intent and sinister motive by default) and that the crime of Media-Fraud has been around for Centuries and this 'Fake News' is nothing new at all.

Is The Onion fake news?
Kind of. Strictly speaking, fake news is completely made up and designed to deceive readers to maximise traffic and profit.

But the definition is often expanded to include websites that circulate distorted, decontextualised or dubious information through – for example – clickbaiting headlines that don’t reflect the facts of the story, or undeclared bias.

You cannot possibly tell me that the original website I used in Round 1, The Independent and The Guardian all three are uniting on what precisely the Meme evolved from and the context in which Fake News is used requires intent that is malicious and the lies must absolutely be intentionally fictional, not simply reporting genuine suspicion based on realistic speculation that can be deduced from analysing incomplete information.

It is important to understand that CNN didn't report Trump colluding with Russia out of not bothering to have information that was available, instead the information genuinely was murky and they were openly reporting their suspicions.

I challenge Pro to look through the following array of articles, ordered fantastically well to help you follow the storyline of the investigation (set out by CNN for you to look into): https://edition.cnn.com/specials/politics/trump-russia-ties

Please, go ahead and instead of using an ex-Producer's words, which come from someone who was clearly involved with production and not investigation, let's stick to the facts at hand and avoid delivering Fake News to the voters, shall we?
Round 3
Forfeited
Published:
The intent to deceive is not the same as the intent to express suspicion based on available evidence that is not entirely conclusive.

CNN doesn't intend to deceive, it intends to inform fast based on suspicion rooted in facts and a world where noone can express suspicion is a world of tyranny indeed.

Round 4
Published:
RM has completely dropped the "objective reporting" argument which is poor conduct. If I put my time into an argument I should expect at least a response to it.  And now if he does respond to it, I am unable to respond back.  

When we see CNN's mission statement, it openly admits it aims to deliver fast news to many people. Not that its ethos is to patiently wait for all things to have concluded before pleasing its audience.

So would this also apply to the Covington kid and Jussie Smollett?  So if you call a kid racist, anti-immigrant, etc. and destroy his reputation and say this to all of your viewers, based on an out of context 2 minute video, that is OK right?  In the end they delivered it fast so it's fine.  I don't care if their mission is to get fast news out, because that doesn't determine whether it is right or not, fake or not.

Nick Sandmann sued The Washington Post, not CNN. Here is a non-fake-news CNN report on the matter: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/19/media/nick-sandmann-washington-post-lawsuit/index.html Here is another news source that agrees that it's the Washington Post being sued, not CNN: https://www.dailysignal.com/2019/03/04/how-covingtons-nick-sandmann-could-win-his-defamation-claim-against-washington-post/
He sued CNN too.  He actually is suing CNN for 275M.  You are wrong.  Funny you bring up fake news.  Here is a "non-fake news" report, actually multiple, on CNN being sued.


But the definition is often expanded to include websites that circulate distorted, decontextualised or dubious information through – for example – clickbaiting headlines that don’t reflect the facts of the story, or undeclared bias.
"decontextualised"- sounds a bit like Covington, doesn't it?

"clickbaiting headlines that don’t reflect the facts of the story"- https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/23/opinions/america-mocks-dehumanizes-natives-at-every-turn/index.html     the title of this is "America mocks and dehumanizes natives at every turn", this does not reflect the facts of the story, with insults being thrown at sandman and the boys first with the use of profanity and racial remarks.

"undeclared bias"-  CNN does this.  You still have not addressed it.  Go to round 2.

Please, go ahead and instead of using an ex-Producer's words, which come from someone who was clearly involved with production and not investigation, let's stick to the facts at hand and avoid delivering Fake News to the voters, shall we?
First of all, not an ex-producer.  Found nowhere that he was fired.  Source please.  Second, producers know all about ratings and what is good for their shows and what is not.  They are experts at it.  He admitted a bunch of things, mainly they were doing the Russia thing for ratings.

Investigation you say?  Van Jones, a formal CNN host and regular contributor, surely would be involved in investigation, wouldn't he?  He said the "whole russia thing is just a big nothing burger."  And before some of you go, "oh that's taken out of context" or "they have a reputation of faking blah blah...." here is the full uncut of that conversation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qSPA9WRJec

So with all of this said, I ask for your vote, as we should stick to the facts and avoid fake news, shall we?

Published:
Round 2 Advertising
Pro has violate the Code of Conduct of this website by advertising a YouTube channel that is in a highly revenue-based battle with another for most subscribed-to YT Channel. It is only funny and cute because we assume Pro doesn't work with or have any close relation to anyone profiting from it in real life. Pro could even be reverse-advertising (supporting the other channel or opposing the competition altogether) and trying to make PewDiePie look bad by this. We do not know the motives but it is genuinely advertising.

Forfeiting Round 3
Forfeiting a Round is considered bad conduct. I couldn't post so instantly to Pro's R2 but did respect him having 5 day leave by stretching things out so he'd have a chance to post his R3 (Pro identifies as male on his profile for now, so that's why I say 'he').

Bringing brand new evidence, rebuttal-angles and even points in Last Round
Bad conduct. If I, as Con, did this it would be more obvious why this is bad Conduct as the opponent can't reply to it at all. Pro is forcing Con to need to bring new angles and not be able to smoothly reflect on the debate and appeal to voters as is meant to happen in the Last Round and this is still poor Conduct all around as there wasn't even an apology or explanation.


This utter nonsense, I don't care if Sandmann says he will sue CNN it is Washington Post's report that directly called him racist, CNN reported it differently and why did you ignore the entire Russia Collusion? WHY DID PRO IGNORE THE ENTIRE RUSSIA COLLUSION SUDDENLY? I gave him a link with the entire timeline and he didn't give a single fake news story.

Just nothing more to say, I made my case alredy.
Added:
CNN: Trump made a typo on Sri Lanka saying millions of people dead. Imagine if he gets the big stuff wrong.
CNN generally thinks 300 dead is "little stuff"
Added:
--> @Our_Boat_is_Right
If it protects minority's so much than again, explain how the smaller states almost have no voice at all and the stronghold states almost have no power.
This is why midwest states and stronghold states almost get no representative at all. Literally everything single state gets thrown aside and the only states that actually get representation are the swing states.
I do not know of a good alternative to this problem yet, although as of right now i'd prefer a well regulated popular vote to the electoral college since in that system nobody gets silenced and everyone gets a voice.
Added:
--> @Pinkfreud08
It is based on population so while it still allows voices to be heard from farmers in Nebraska for example, those minority voices do not overshadow the more populated states. Every state counts. Conservatives in California are outnumbered by socialists, but again it does protect other minority voices because it is only a certain amount of delegates per state. Would you have an alternative to both systems if you believe they both silence voices?
Instigator
#155
Added:
--> @Our_Boat_is_Right
The electoral college silences more than it voices. For example conservative voters in california almost have no voice at all, or Democrats in texas.
Secondly the electoral college puts too much power into the hands of the swing states. Why do you think the majority of candidates don't bother visiting stronghold states too often and instead focus all of their attention to the swing states?
Added:
--> @TheRealNihilist
Our country has never been a democracy yet is the best in the world. I prefer a democratic republic because then if it is a democracy it is mob rule, which would turn into a dictatorship. Electoral College protects minority voices while at the same time letting majority be heard, but not to the extent they overshadow everybody else. It isn't an oligarchy, half of the people like Trump in our country. Good thing we don't have you running the laws or else the U.S. would be a disaster.
Instigator
#153
Added:
Guess you are against a democracy. Guess you would prefer a monarchy or a dictatorship. Don't worry about it the US is already an oligarchy so it's almost there.
Added:
--> @Virtuoso
>> There’s no discussion on how it impacted the debate
I already addressed this in comment 138. I said: "He argues that the anecdotal nature of the evidence you presented undermined your argument. So, yes, he does explain how sources impacted the debate." This was for the voter both an issue of sourcing/evidence and argumentation. The vote is borderline, but I do not believe there is a clear-cut case for removing it.
Added:
--> @Virtuoso
He didn't say how they were conspiracy or unreliable. He generalizes the websites as consipracy, but does not show how the actual sources given were conspiracy or unreliable, which is what he should do.
Instigator
#150
Added:
--> @bsh1
In order to award sources points, a voter must explicitly, and in the text of their RFD, perform the following tasks:
Explain, on balance, how each debater's sources impact the debate
Directly evaluate at least one source in particular cited in the debate and explain how it either bolstered or weakened the argument it was used to support
Must explain how and why one debater's use of sources overall was superior to the other's
Mere appeals to quantity are not sufficient to justify awarding sources points.
There’s no discussion on how it impacted the debate
Added:
The only thing I see that he didn’t do which is required is Explain, on balance, how each debater's sources impact the debate. There’s no discussion on that impact
Added:
--> @Our_Boat_is_Right
He pointed specific examples of sources that were conspiracy and unreliable, not just a generalization. Because of that the vote is fine.
Added:
--> @bsh1
I still stand by my statement he is not justifying sources. I dropped it after you said it doesn't matter whether the voter addresses the actual sources or not. A rule change I propose is making the voter address the reliability of the sources cited, not the website behind the sources. And that is very reasonable. I said he is lying because he said everyone of my sources were conspiracy theorists. If I voted on your debate and said your source wasn't reliable because it is fake news and a leftist neo-nazi website, would you accept that vote?
Instigator
#146
Added:
--> @Our_Boat_is_Right
Rule changes aren't indicated at this time. The rules are not there to ensure that all votes are "good," but merely to curb the most egregious kinds of failures voters can commit. In that respect, the standards constitute a floor, not a ceiling--a bare minimum--of what a vote must do.
Besides, you're shifting the goalposts. At first you allege that the voter wasn't properly justifying sources. That allegation was incorrect. Now you allege that the voter was "lying." These are not the same objections. That you are changing your objections to overcome my responses to them suggests your issue is more about the verdict that the voter reached and less about the RFD itself. That's a dispute properly left to you and the voter to navigate, and is not the legitimate purview of moderation to review.
Added:
--> @bsh1
If that vote is allowed to stand, you need some rule changes to prevent blatant lies.
Instigator
#144
Added:
--> @Our_Boat_is_Right
>> he was talking about the argument, not sources.
He was talking about both.
>> He does not expand on the conspiracy claim.
The rules do not require him to expand on this claim in-depth. What he has is sufficient to meet the standard.
#4
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
The first thing to note is that pro does not offer a concrete definition of fake news. This allows con to dominate with the definition - cons attempt to reiterate the definitions lead to a confused and arbitrary definition where it is still largely unclear as to how the flohrase fake news applies.
My issue with the resolution - is that not only does pro need to prove that articles and bias are intentionally leading to false stories - but as he claims CNN as a whole is “fake news”, he has to show this is systematic in cnn.
Pro offers four examples, Smollett, Covington, negative press against Trump, and a collection of claims about Russia. There was a throwaway comment about Acosta which wasn’t detailed enough to weigh.
For the first two, pro offers only asserted conclusions- that CNN rushed to judgement therefore it was purposefully dishonest much of the time - I feel the conclusion doesn’t automatically follow from the premise - and pro offers no arguments to convince me it does: nor does he offer any evidence that there is a wider intentional dishonesty other than these two examples; nor does he offer evidence of intent to mislead.
For the example of negative press coverage - if I assume this is factually correct, this is only evidence of widespread dishonesty if pro also shows the press coverage should not be 90% negative - which he does not; or that the specific coverage is broadly unfair - which he also does not.
The remaining Russian related points pro raises constitute a general assertion that Russian Collusion was a lie, and a couple of examples of members of CNN staff lessening the significance of Russia. In the complete absence of specific context or any detail - pro does not provide me a reason to believe that Van Jones believing that Russian Collusion is a big nothing burger means that the entirety of CNNs reported narrative is deliberately dishonest -likewise pro doesn’t offer an argument as to why the producers comments that there’s no big proof (or the rest) demonstrate their coverage is overly unfair or dishonest. At best it’s a type of heresay - rather than evidence.
Cons rebuttal to the Russian point was short - but brutal. He simply asked pro to show which of the Russian stories are made up. Pro was not able to answer this point. This is particularly devestating as it makes it apparent that despite pros wide ranging claims that the Russian narrative was faked, lies, made up - he is unable to point to a single one of the multiple stories that is actually fake. This point alone, and pros inability to show an example of where CNNs Russian narrative was fake as he claimed - demonstrates how vacuous pros position is.
The remaining issues really boils down to definitions of what fake news is: “CNN is fake news”, in my view cannot be taken to mean simply that one or two stories are inaccurate and get corrected, as con explained and justified with concrete definitions - there must be intent to deceive, and imo there must be substantial patterns of misbehaviour.
As pros primary evidences are offered prima facia as evidence of bias, bad content and fakery - yet cannot be reasonably interpreted to support the contention prima facia; this means pro doesn’t provide the necessary warrant for his main claims about Jesse Smollet, Covington, and Pro simply destroys pros fake collusion narrative with his unanswered question.
Arguments to con.
Conduct to con for the forfeit.
All other points tied.
#3
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
PRO failed to define their terms in the first round which slowed the conversation down. CON defined theirs right away. CON then gave examples and provided a nuance view on CNN in order to demonstrating the low percentage of "fake news" CNN has done and by putting the burden of proof on PRO.
PRO's arguments on objective reporting "Anyone who reads a CNN article or turns on their night cable news can tell everybody has a leftist bias", this is not a strong evidence. No one can argue against anecdotes and they are not worth much. PRO then failed to understand CON's argument on the differences between messing up on some details to fabricating news. CON then provided more evidence to support their side.
PRO provided highly questionable sources like infowars, stonecoldtruth and project veritas. Each one of these are known conspiracy theory websites. On the other side, CON provided proper sources like European Union related websites, independent and the actual website they were talking about.

PRO failed to define their terms and then forfeited a round which goes against debate ethics, CON defined their terms and properly made arguments the whole time, not forfeited any round.
#2
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
There is little debate to be had when a consensus cannot be reached in a critical definition such as fake news. The responsibility to clearly define a term with such myriad meaning falls upon the debate creator and should be done before acceptance so as to provide a fair debating environment. Pros failure in this regard should be regarded as poor conduct. And hence, along with the forfeiture of a round, conduct to to Con.
#1
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1634