Instigator / Pro
36
1500
rating
16
debates
40.63%
won
Topic
#652

Donald Trump is NOT Racist: Change my Mind

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
12
21
Better sources
14
16
Better legibility
8
8
Better conduct
2
7

After 8 votes and with 16 points ahead, the winner is...

Death23
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
4
Time for argument
Three days
Max argument characters
30,000
Voting period
One month
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
52
1553
rating
24
debates
56.25%
won
Description

Voters will vote on the arguments and voting criteria like any other debate. Whether my mind is changed or not has no effect on the voting.

Racism is a pretty agreed upon term- "the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others."
So thinking that you are superior to another race.

That is the main definition, but another one could be prejudice or discrimination of another race.

Rules: One must accept my given definitions of racism, and provide BoP that Trump has said or done racist things.
I will give a general overview of the debate in round 1, and then Con will start off the arguments. Con will then waive the last round.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

Pro never offered an offense. Pro forfeited the first two rounds and then complained that con was misinterpreting thesis. Con gave solid evidence of Trumps racist past. Although I tend to agree with Pro that such a claim should be backed by recent evidence, Pro had 4 opportunities to argue for excluding old evidence before bringing it up in R3. Only one side in this debate made evidence based claims. Arguments to Con. Pro used no sources- sources to Con. Conduct for forfeit

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

Kiss my goddamn ass.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

The BOP was on Con to provide an instance in which, according to the rules: "Trump has said or done racist things." "Things" is vague, but it is clear that Pro wants Con to rove that Trump did something which proves his allegiance to white supremacy, or is prejudiced toward another race. While Pro's objection to testers is noted, he never explicitly gives me proof suggesting bias in the experiment conducted with the testers. Moreover, Con offers interviews with previous employees of Trump Management Incorporated which adds validity to Con's claims. Even if the bias in unintentional, old, or outdated, the rules of the debate only ask Con to show "prejudice or discrimination of another race." A strategy which Pro easily could have capitalized on is attributing the racist policy to Fred Trump. Perhaps Pro could contend the charges against the group as well, since the only evidence supporting the theory that Donald Trump is a part of the racist policies is conjecture as he "was on of the bosses," and "likely had a hand in implementing the will of his father." Instead, Pro asserts that black people support Trump. This is true, but it doesn't prove that Donald Trump isn't racist, or hasn't discriminated against minority groups. Con points out this discrepancy. Unfortunately, Con didn't adhere completely to the rules as he didn't waive the last round, so I give the conduct point to Pro. The forfeit at the beginning of the debate made me seriously think about keeping the conduct point a tie. However, the forfeit didn't seriously impede the debate since Con was supposed to go first to begin with.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

The instigator forfeited the first Round. Which meant the debate was cut even shorter by only 2 Rounds from 3. Since there is a rule of waiving 1 Round shared by both opponents it is already cut down to 3 Rounds but since the instigator did forfeit and the contender did not give a response in Round 1. The debate was 2 Rounds which is the fault of the instigator.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

Argument point

Pro offered no main argument other than to point out that BoP was on Con.

Con said;

"On July 16th, 1968 a complaint was filed with the New York City Commission on Human Rights alleging an unlawful discriminatory practice in violation of the Administrative Code of the City of New York; Specifically, that Fred Trump (Donald Trump's father) refused to rent an apartment to a man because he was black.

A hearing on the complaint was held on October 31st, 1968, before the commission, at which time testimony and evidence were received. The commission found that respondent Fred Trump engaged in an unlawful discriminatory practice in violation of the Administrative Code of the City of New York.

https://www.clearinghouse.net/chDocs/public/FH-NY-0024-0055.pdf

On October 15th, 1973, the Nixon administration's then acting Attorney General Elliot Richardson filed a complaint on behalf of the United States against Donald Trump, et al, in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of New York. The complaint, inter alia, alleged the following:

1. Trump Management Inc. was a New York corporation doing business in the Eastern District of New York, managing and operating numerous apartment buildings, totaling at least 14,000 dwelling units in the New York area and elsewhere. (These facts were not denied in the Trump's answer to the complaint - https://www.clearinghouse.net/chDocs/public/FH-NY-0024-0018.pdf )

2. Donald Trump was president of Trump Management Inc. and was responsible for the policies and practices of Trump Management Inc. (This fact was not denied in the Trumps' answer to the complaint - https://www.clearinghouse.net/chDocs/public/FH-NY-0024-0018.pdf )

3. Donald Trump, et al, through his actions and those of his agents and employees, discriminated against persons because of race in the operation of the apartment buildings, among other ways, by:"

Con shows evidence that formal charges were brought up against trump, but I see nothing about a guilty verdict. Let's read on.

As his arguments pile up, Con shows that there is a consistent pattern that is in line with the agreed upon definition of racism for this debate. Because of the sheer amount of evidence of racist behavior, Con establishes a solid base case, let's see if Pro does anything to negate it.

Pro replies by saying that the civil rights act hadn't kicked in yet, but this is not sufficient because the legal guilt and innocence is not part of the resolution. Pro even admits to the incident cited by Con being true, a fatal concession. The rest of the debate is largely semantics and doesn't change the resolution at all. Argument point to Con.

Condcut to Con for the first round forfeit by pro.

All others tied.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

Arguments:

Con only provided one piece of evidence that Trump was racist. This was extremely disappointing to me, as there are many examples. However, I'm not the one debating.

Pro clearly said in the description "provide BoP that Trump has said or done racist things." "Things" is plural, and Con only provided one. That's the first red flag. Secondly, Pro easily beat down the one example Con gave by saying that we're discussing if Trump IS racist, not WAS. Him pointing out that the example that Con gave was 50 years old was completely valid. Had Con given both recent and old examples, it would have been fine, but that was not the case.

This is why I'm giving the point to Pro.

Conduct:

Pro forfeited. That's bad conduct.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

Rules: One must accept my given definitions of racism, and provide BoP that Trump has said or done racist things.”
Pro clearly states the rules of the debate are that con must show that Trump has done racist things. The racist things con mentions are clearly uncontested by pro, and pro simply attempts to backpeddle on the rules of tbe debage by changing the goalposts.

I am sympathetic to one debater changing or challenging the rules during a debate in the following scenarios:

- it can be shown that there is a clear harm to either debater if the rules are accepted as is (IE: the rule makes the debate logically unwinnable)
- the rule is obviously being applied in a way opposite or contrary to the way a regular person would interpret the rules. (IE: the rule is being used in a way contrary to its intent) and thus needs to be clarified.
If neither of these things are true here - pro does not show that the rules were misinterpreted, or that the interpretation of the rules makes the debate resolution unfair - I am forced to judge the debate on how a regular person would interpret the rules.

I am of the view con must show that Trump has done racist things to negate the resolution as per the stipulated rules. He has done this, by citing an extensively sourced example of Trumps racial discrimination in the 1960//70s. Pro does not contest these things happened, nor that Trump was responsible - merely that they don’t count. As shown above - these do count according to pros own rules. Pros only response is to present a short list of all the not racist things Trump has done, even if true - this doesn’t negate that Trump has done racist things - which is the condition for victory as specified by the rules.

While con didn’t waive the final round as stipulated - pro effectively forfeited two rounds - then attempted to simply change the rules in his final round.
The forfeits here are much more series than cons final round clarification (he made no new arguments), and the attempt to argue con should be held to a different set of r

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

Conduct: Pro moved the goal post, in his description he defines the goal post as

"provide BoP that Trump has said or done racist things."

- Which implies that he HAS done racist things. Which implies that the time period doesn't matter. However than later on Pro moves the goal post by stating,

"My opponent has not proven that Trump is racist today, and is using evidence from 50 years ago"

This is a moving of the goal post since previously Pro used a general tense but is now claiming that the goal is to prove Trump has been racist recently. This is an obvious moving of the goal post which Pro spouted multiple times throughout the debate.

Moving of the goal post in and of itself, is poor conduct on pro's part.