Instigator / Pro
21
1402
rating
44
debates
40.91%
won
Topic
#656

Woman should be allowed to walk around topless in public without being shamed for it.

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
9
0
Better sources
6
6
Better legibility
3
3
Better conduct
3
0

After 3 votes and with 12 points ahead, the winner is...

Wrick-It-Ralph
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
4
Time for argument
Three days
Max argument characters
30,000
Voting period
One week
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
9
1476
rating
4
debates
25.0%
won
Description

The debate will be based on a societal ought, so I believe a shared BoP is appropriate here.

I don't do contingencies beyond default debate rules so argue any way you see fit.

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@K_Michael

Woman think of pecks sexually as well. As far as I can tell, modesty is an imposition of society and there is nothing intrinsic about it. We don't see other mammals covered there sexy parts. I think that intelligence is counter to evolution and causes us to do strange things that make no sense. If someone wanted to root the argument in evolution, I would say that maybe jealously is the reason. A man is self conscious and worried that someone might woo away his mate, so he tries to desexualize here to keep the other alphas away.

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@Tiwaz

So are you.

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@RationalMadman

You're welcome to have that perspective, even if it's objectively wrong.

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@Tiwaz

I'm saying it.

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@Wrick-It-Ralph

I think the taboo on women's breasts has to do with the sexual associations. Everyone is trained to think of female breasts sexually, and most people regard open sexuality as taboo. So there is a difference between males and females being topless. This view is incorrect, but the problem is either the sexuality taboo or the sexual association with women's breasts. That's where the problem lies, in my opinion.

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@RationalMadman

I never said it was the only reason it was bad. I never even said it was a reason for it being bad.

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@Tiwaz

stigma against polygamy is the only reason that polygamy is bad, genius.

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@Wrick-It-Ralph
@MrMaestro

Honestly, I haven't read the entire debate. But I will say that from my viewpoint it's a question of how much stigma is bad and to the extent it's necessary. A socially-cohesive society will always intricate forms of stigma; it's necessary and the concept itself isn't inherently good and bad.

(e.g., stigma against mental-illness bad to an extent; stigma against polygamy good to an extent).

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@MrMaestro

Well there were prongs of our arguments that met up, so there was enough discourse to go around, but it did fizzle out quicker than normal because we weren't on the perfectly same track.

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@Wrick-It-Ralph
@Tiwaz

Yeah man, I'm not against women being topless in public. Taking the "women shouldn't have rights" approach is a pretty weak argument anyway haha.

In my opinion, your morality argument was the strongest one. There's really no reason for a certain behavior to be stigmatized if it doesn't hurt society. One could argue that nudity is somehow bad for kids, or the public, but it's a weak counter.

I think Tiwaz is right though, we were kind of arguing about different things. You were saying that social stigma (which causes shame) is a bad thing, and I was arguing that individualized shame is inherent and necessary. These two things aren't really interchangeable; one refers to the individual the other refers to society. Our arguments were slightly misaligned in that respect.

Until we meet again, Steel Ralph.

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@MrMaestro
@Speedrace

It was a fun debate and my opponent took a practical approach as opposed to when I posted this on DDO and my opponent basically argued that the act of female nudity was immoral because society said so.

Your approach had a little more rationalization to it because I could sometimes see situations on private property where it wasn't just outright sexism.

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@MrMaestro

I must have missed this comment. No problem man. Life happens.

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@Wrick-It-Ralph

Hey Ralph, good debate! Sorry about the forfeit at the end, just got busy with school work, you know how it goes.

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@Wrick-It-Ralph
@MrMaestro

Nice job, guys.

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@MrMaestro

I wish you hadn't forfeited.

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@MrMaestro

Thanks though!

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@MrMaestro

I don't know if you're on a computer or not. But I type really fast and I pretty much just write these things off the top off my head.

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@Wrick-It-Ralph

Holy crap you're quick. It takes me so long so come up with a decent sounding argument and you just rip one off 10 minutes. HOW THO

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@Tiwaz

Hi Tiwaz, that's a good point. I guess I was operating on the assumption that social stigma implies shame, however a clarification there would be prudent.

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@MrMaestro

I like your argument for the most part, it just seems you're confusing shame with social stigma. Individual shame can be the result of acting discordantly with a stigma; likewise, an act is shameful if society has defined it negatively.

Stigma isn't inherently good or bad but a distinction between shame and stigma has to be made.

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@MrMaestro

I swear I posted that. Good thing it saved I guess.

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@MrMaestro

Indeed. But I intend to improve in the places where I lacked in this argument before. I will use your blade to further mold my armor.

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@Wrick-It-Ralph

Haha we sure did. Hopefully this one will be just as fun. I have the advantage though - I've read your position on this before :)

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@MrMaestro

Indeed. ooo, we had a fun debate last time right?

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@Wrick-It-Ralph

We meet again Steel Ralph