Instigator / Con
14
1641
rating
63
debates
65.08%
won
Topic
#707

Is Calvinism True?

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
6
3
Better sources
4
4
Better legibility
2
2
Better conduct
2
2

After 2 votes and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...

Speedrace
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
5
Time for argument
Three days
Max argument characters
30,000
Voting period
One week
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Pro
11
1504
rating
6
debates
66.67%
won
Description

No information

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@Ramshutu

The basis is calvinism true was an incorrect title for the debate. we actually tried to change it. Basically we tried to argue if predestination is supported by scripture or not.

*cry*

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@Speedrace

Some of those questions you asked me did put me through the ringer, There is a lot i don't know about God or how he does things. But i do know that sometimes God would speak to those who believe in him (elect/fore ordained) and tell them to do something and they would either do it or not do it, regardless of the will. I don't have an answer for that, other than the will is more subtle in some cases than in others.

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@Speedrace

"You’re referring to Romans 3:11. The same chapter in verses 21-24 says “But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

So it’s saying that before the law, no one can choose God, but after and apart from it, righteousness is for everyone who believes, and that there is NO DIFFERENCE between any."

you are misunderstanding the context of the verses. God is saying that righteousness is revealed in them that believe and that through belief all of them are justified freely by his grace through redemption that came by Christ Jesus. The difference that is significant here is hebrew and greek. Paul is emphasing that all have sinned and none have sought him through their own will, but those who were called and ordained, they have faith in Jesus christ regardless of nationality or sin. The law will no longer condemn those who didn't seek God as they find redemption through Jesus christ, because No one could follow the law in all points and be sinless. Therefore he took our sin and became sin for us that through him we have redemption.

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@Speedrace

"Your view: God predestined a select group of people to become Christians.
My view: God allows anyone who chooses to become a Christian.

Both have the word “become.” Where i put the become is the issue. Do we become sons before or after we are born? We are predestined to son ship.

John 7:17
Joshua 24:15
Romans 10:9-10
Mark 8:34

Joshua 24:15 makes no seperation of God's will imputed in the choices, therefore they were already predetermined. and again, they had no knowledge of predestination at that time.

Mark 8:34 "Whosoever will come after me," jesus is addressing those who have the will to take up the cross, this crucial to understanding that God imputes the will. Jesus is recognizing those who would come after him and he instructs them to deny himself, take up their cross and follow him, which they will do as they the will.

John 7:17 falls in same category, "If any man will do his will, He SHALL know of the doctrine," Recognition of the will of God on those he is speaking to and again informing them as they will do it.

romans 10:9-10 This is demonstrating how the will works, not showing choice of man. and again shows instruction. "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness:" thats where the will is imputed in man The bible says "Blessed is the man whom the lord imputes no sin" Or, has no will to sin.

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@Speedrace

I have missed one of your questions. "You’ve said that believers will go to God irresistibly, regardless of if they hear the Word or not. So again, why are we told to preach to people who will go to God regardless and to people who CAN’T go to God?"
I invite voters to withdraw a point for conduct because i missed this one.

I never said believers will go to God irresistibly, I said Gods grace is irresistible in that it draws them, preaching is one of the ways grace drawls people. We are told to preach that they might hear, even though they may have already denied creation's proof of God. Just because people may not come to God through recognition of creation, they may come to God through the revealing of his word.

"I’m aware that he was speaking to believers. You haven’t explained why the “us” excludes everyone else.

Leader: We are strong, and we are brave. Let’s take the victory.

Follwors: Yeah, let’s do it!

Does the “we” here mean that ONLY these people are strong and brave? Obviously not."

You provided an example that doesn't specify the context of what Us is. where as ephesians does.

"I’m not saying that, I’m saying that God offers salvation to everyone and he saves those who accept it."

And who can accept it unless God drawls them?

"You just said that God has a purpose for everything and he doesn’t do stuff just for his pleasure."
isaiah 41:21-23. The purpose and pleasure are together, God does nothing without a purpose or his pleasure. therefore i didn't see fit to emphasis the need for purpose as i established that God does everything with a purpose. Thats like saying i offered you a suit but i didn't talk about the tie, the tie is included in the suit.

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@Speedrace

"If God is controlling us and everything we do, that's not serving."

Sure it is, God accomplishes what he wants through us. Again, he isn't controlling us, he is inserting and refraining will through the spirit.

"In the predestination view, the "elect" have had some spiritual difference in them since the beginning of time. However, here it says that the change occurred on the road."
No, the predestination view never establishes a difference in any person, only the fore ordaining of God before they were born. A person who is fore ordained is no better and has no more advantages than a person who is not. God revealed himself to Paul on the road and there was a recognition from him that he is Lord, the one he persecuted even against his own pricks of the conscience. Which God does to everyone, he reveals or manifests or sends a will that people will consider and obey and follow him.

"There is no "elect"."

1 peter 1:1-2 matthew 24:22-24

"I never said that we deserve life. God says he works for our good, which goes beyond just giving us life. And lots of people who aren’t murderers and are innocent are killed everyday."

he does work for our Good, he keeps us from many things including sin. Im saying we never deserve life and im justified in saying that because of scripture. As to why some die and some don't God has a purpose through it and for it.

"I’m aware of our nature. However, that doesn’t mean that we can ONLY do evil. Non-believers do good all the time. This is why Jesus died to give us grace, so that we can CHOOSE salvation."

"There is none that do Good." We can only do evil unless God changes and introduces us to his nature and his goodness. Grace is to help us become more like him as we live our life and it keeps us from sin. Grace is unmerited favor, God has unmerited favor on everyone.

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@Melcharaz

I'm unable to do that

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@David

Is it possible to change the title to better suit the context of this debate?

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@Speedrace

If you are able, would you change the title to something like "Is predestination false?" that way your position as instigator and my postition as contender makes more sense in the debate.

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@Melcharaz

Ohhh ok, thank you so much

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@Speedrace

When you " " hit the quote button of the selected sentence. I copy and paste the sentence then hit quotes button.

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@Melcharaz

How do you do that grey background thing?

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@Speedrace

Ill leave round 5 blank on my side, unless there are questions you want me to address.

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@Speedrace

a very good scripture is isaiah 41:21-23 God challenges Gods to consider the former things and declare their outcome.

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@Speedrace

genesis 50:18-20 i forgot the 50 on that one. - spelling grammar point.

Oh you meant three separate beings, yeah I don't support that either.

Really? I do support the Holy Trinity, just not predestination.

Ill go ahead and say i do not support a trinitarian view, as far as i know, the concept of predestination is what i agree with regarding calvinism. If we are going to debate their doctrines, then i will concede, i follow the bible specifically.