In season 8 of Game of Thrones, Euron Greyjoy will probably betray Cercei Lannister
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Euron stated from the beginning that the queen he wanted was Danaerys, not Cercei.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fQqbgycLRg
Euron had a horn in the books which was capable of controlling dragons, if this is implemented in the show it supports my claim by virtue of the fact that he has an end game plan at play wherein Cercei does not fit into the picture. At that point it would be clear he is only using Cercei to get at Dany's dragons and the iron throne.
Euron wants to be in control, and if he sticks with Cercei and doesn't somehow get rid of her she will continue to sit on the iron throne and be the primary ruling figure.
Well, sure and who can blame him but Danaerys would never accept Euron as consort.1. Euron is of insufficient stature to consort with the Dragon Queen.2. Euron objectifies women but the Dragon Queen mostly smites men who objectify women.3. Euron is a declared enemy of Daenerys Targaryan. Euron has killed many important allies of the Dragon Queen and destroyed many of the ships precious to the Dragon Queen's campaign
Yeah, but Cercei is one the series' two primary antagonists (the other being the Night King). No well told fantasy lets some late-arriving minor character take out the primary antagonist, right?
Pro now argues that Euron doesn't need Danaerys to betray Cercei which, while true, undermines Pro's supporting argument( although Pro also backtracks on this by suggesting that Euron may yet produce some means of leverage over Danaerys, perhaps by taking the Iron Throne himself).
and Con agree that Dragonbinder is not likely to appear in the TV show, so let's throw out Pro's second argument "Euron might have a horn that controls dragons," as possible but not probable.
Pro argued that Euron is sufficiently ambitious to stage a coup and assume the Iron Throne himself. I countered that this would make for terrible story-telling. Queen Cercei Lannister has been the proximate or real power behind the Iron Throne for a full seven seasons. To substitute a late-comer bad guy at the top of the antagonists power base this late in the game would make for a dissatisfying climax.
The ambitions of a minor evil character are not likely to derail the ambitions of a major evil character.
without Euron, Cercei loses her navy and the means to transport the Golden Company from Essos which makes Cercei less of a threat in the last few episodes. Doesn't the villain typically increase in power and ability just before the climax?
Euron's character did not appear in Episode 2 (aired last night) at all....if the writers of this series were planning some major reversal or plot point from Euron's character, wouldn't the principles of good narrative demand some upkeep on Euron's character this week? [2]
Euron must be cognizant of the threat Cercei poses to his life and it would seem inconsistent with Euron's character to roll the dice with some conspiracy when the odds would be so clearly stacked against him, whatever his true ambition.
Euron alone on the Iron Throne without a Lannister support system is far weaker than Euro as present consort to Cercei. Euron must be aware of this so would it be likely for Euron to choose total authority over much less power or preserve present shared authority over far more power? Which state is more likely to satisfy Euron's ambition? I'd argue the latter.
Theon's character has substantially improved in stature and likability over the last few episodes. If Theon survives the army of the dead (which seems like all of next week's episode), he stands to be the likeliest protagonist to resolve Euron's story, not Cercei. If Theon dies next week, look to Yara as the next likeliest protagonist to resolve Euron's story, again not Cercei.
Now you are misinterpreting and/or misrepresenting what I said. If Euron attempts (which is his stated plan) but fails to get with Dany, he still will have betrayed Cercei. Therefor he does not need to actually succeed in his attempts to have betrayed Cercei. I haven't backtracked on anything.
That one is not so clear cut, because who knows what they might do. I will give you this, it is not definitively "probable" but the possibility of it is one more factor making it probable that Euron will betray Cercei in general.
The current writers are not as proficient as George RR Martin by any means, and have clearly tried to mimic his unpredictable story telling. There is no reason to assume that scenario is unlikely because it is "terrible story-telling".They are perfectly likely to defy that sentiment in the name of highly unexpected plot twists such as "Euron kills Cercei then dragon-binds Drogon then Jon Snow faces him in a sword fight while Clegane Bowl takes place simultaneously and Dany dies in child-birth and then Bran becomes the Night King and wargs into Drogon and makes him eat Euron right before he's about to kill Jon and then Sansa has sex with Ghost and has wolf-babies".
Okay, maybe that one wasn't so likely, but you get what I mean. They could very well do things that don't work that well in the name of crazy plot twists.
Typically yes, but the true Arch-Villain is the Night King and almost nothing in GOT is typical to begin with. Cercei is relying on Euron as you have just pointed out, they are both just using each other. Euron is the one with more power to gain by betraying Cercei, whereas she is in a position where she has to rely on him to maintain her position.
Euron's character did not appear in Episode 2 (aired last night) at all....if the writers of this series were planning some major reversal or plot point from Euron's character, wouldn't the principles of good narrative demand some upkeep on Euron's character this week? [2]Cercei didn't appear in that episode either.
Some of the main characteristics of Euron are arrogance and belligerence. The type of arrogance and belligerence that makes you do ballsy or even reckless things.
Why does Euron want to marry the queen? So he can be the king. I agree that if he actually did become the primary monarch and a primary antagonist it might be stupid, but I don't think it's probable that he will. I only think it's probable that he will try. Cercei wears the pants in their relationship, she is the one on the iron throne. Do you think Euron wants to be Cercei's lapdog forever?
There are two threads of arguments being made here. One is relating to storytelling precedence (ie satisfaction of the ending), and one relating to character motivations.
In terms of character motivations: I believe that con shows that Euron has burnt his bridges with Daenerys, and is unlikely to be accepted. This eliminates a major source of potential portrayal.
The second source of portrayal both sides discuss, is relating to ceasing the iron throne itself (ie Euron would betray Cersei for his own power). I didn’t see any decent or compelling scenario presented for how this could occur. While I think it’s possible - without a supported or logical scenario where this could happen, I don’t feel this can be accepted - pro needed to given me evidence indicate Euron is motivated by more than he has already indicated (which he didn’t). Con does rather well at highlighting large numbers of reasons why he won’t betray Cersei for daenarys, and by pointing out that Euron is unlikely to have anything to gain by killing Cersei.
From this point of view - I feel the motivation for Euron to betray Cersei aren’t fully elaborated or stated. As such I can’t fully accept them.
From the narrative point of view - pro talks about how such a betrayal is potentially possible, and there is back and forth relating to whether narrative could support the death. I feel that pro does a bit better - that there is no narrative problem with him betraying Cersei. The red wedding, or Ned Stark was a key point here. Con does highlight reasons why this may not be satisfying. For me - all this does is highlight that the narrative doesn’t preclude the issue - rather than indicating probability.
There were a lot of other arguments relating to dragonbinder, the consistuent nature of betrayal - but for me the issue boils down to the probability of Euron a betrayal.
To show this - pro must show that Eurons behaviour, and past actions support or foreshadow him betraying Cersei. Pro comes up short here - with all other arguments being largely irrelevant.
As pro comes short, and con does enough to muddy the water, I can’t say that it’s probable.
Therefore: arguments to con.
Kiss my goddamn ass.
Not a great debate or anything but some people refrained from reading this then that have likely since caught up- I think the debate finished around the third or second to last episode.
What would be a good GoT subject now that the series is complete?
Bummer...
yes! minor but definite spoilers. see Comment #1.
I haven't read this. Does it contain spoilers? I haven't seen any of season 8 yet...and it's KILLING me, but I don't want to read this if there are spoilers, either.
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Vote Reported: Wrick-It-Ralph // Mod Action: Removed
Points awarded: 3 points to con
RFD: This was mostly gibberish to my ears. I'm going with con because his stuff ultimately seems more plausible..... I think.
Reason for mod action: The voter fails to meet the standards set forth by the COC here: https://www.debateart.com/rules
The argument point is not sufficient. In order to award argument points, a voter must explicitly, and in the text of their RFD, perform the following tasks:
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Weigh those arguments against each other (or explain why certain arguments need not be weighed based on what transpired within the debate itself)
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They do none of these things
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We might note that there are now a few minor Season 8 spoilers in the text of this debate, for folks who might harbor such concern.