Instigator / Con
35
1500
rating
16
debates
40.63%
won
Topic
#780

Omar thinks I have political beliefs based on religion: NAME ONE

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
12
9
Better sources
12
12
Better legibility
6
6
Better conduct
5
6

After 6 votes and with 2 points ahead, the winner is...

Our_Boat_is_Right
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
5
Time for argument
Three days
Max argument characters
30,000
Voting period
One month
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Pro
33
1650
rating
44
debates
77.27%
won
Description

BoP is on pro (or Omar hopefully if he doesn't wussy out) to prove I have just ONE political belief based on religion. I will waive the first round, and pro will start out the arguments. Pro will then waive the last round. Only rebuttals in last round.

Criterion
Con
Tie
Pro
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

Omar makes 3 claims on Boat

1.Border Fence
2.Gay Marriage and Civil Unions
3.Prostitution

For The Border Wall, Omar claims Boat is using moral arguments that stem from religion.Boat responds that he gets his morals from accepted social norms saying:”I also think illegals should not be able to cut in front of other LEGAL immigrants who are waiting for a very long time in line to come to the U.S. There is nothing religious about this, it is simply fair.” as well as:”Morality or moral sense is also built into our DNA and shaped by future experiences.”These are very clear social norms so point CON

For Gay Marriage, Pro claims Con gets his arguments from Christianity which is against Homosexuality.Con is able to distinct his religious beliefs and his political beliefs. This is definite proof of separating religion from politics. He very clearly stated:”Religiously, I am against it. Politically, I don't think the government should be in the business of private stuff.” Point CON

Finally for Prostitution, Pro also claims that Con gets also states that since Prostitution is already illegal and a accepted social norm. So like the Border Wall, point Con

Arguments-Con

The Rest-Tied

Criterion
Con
Tie
Pro
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

In terms of arguments, based on all I have read, I believe PRO has provided ample evidence that CON has political views based on religion. It seems very strange that CON rejects this since CON themselves say they are religious. PRO simply had to point out that CON had religious beliefs that they were serious about and PRO did it. CON rebutted by pointing out how their religious belief and their political were different
> "The government should not get into marriage. Stay out of it. If you want to be gay and get married, that is fine with me.
>As a Christian, however, I am against it.
Then CON goes on to say
>NOTE: I am not homophobic."
The last two statements are obvious contradictions. More importantly, CON's political views align with their religious ones. CON is still against same sex marriage politically however they hate the government more than two gay people getting married(This can be deduced directly from what they say in the three above statements above)
PRO refuted that argument by saying > I specifically targeted Civil Unions because that was part of my argument. You instead remove that as something you need to rebut and add your own argument. Basically making a straw-man of me so that it suits you. This is not how you debate. I was given the burden to show how Religion is the basis of your beliefs and used civil unions. Not gay marriage. For you to simply add your own argument as if that is allowed makes it seem like that you are unable to rebut my argument and will do anything to change the argument I made in order to suit yourself. For this reason I will not be rebutting his straw-man of my position instead await him to rebut my civil union claims. This debate was about me showing something. Not you changing what I was showing so it is easier for you to comment on. It is not about what you prefer. It is about you rebutting my claims. Since you did not do that with my first argument.

This shows you have now done it twice but this time added a straw-man.
Though the rebuttal was not perfect since PRO refuted more than was necessary, they still refuted the argument CON made on gay marriage.
CON repeated what they said initially and brought nothing new to the table, making their response irrelevant.
That right there is enough to show that PRO had the upperhand arguments wise since the title of the debate is: Omar thinks I have political beliefs based on religion: NAME ONE

Criterion
Con
Tie
Pro
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

Pro raises several items which he believes are down to cons religious convictions.

His raised issues from politics, legalized prostitution, and the border fence are so tenuously and indirectly linked to cons religious beliefs, if at all, that I can’t accept them.

To me, the resolution means that con has to be projecting a religious belief into the political arena, rather than a nebulous attack of a generalized worldview. Pro has to cite some area or avenue where com has cited that his political beliefs are guided by religion directly. While I’m prepared to accept that all cons position are guided by religious beliefs and worldview - I don’t think simply stating he is religious and has political beliefs is enough, which is a broad outline summary of pros position here. Pro has to do more to link directly and causally cons religious beliefs and political beliefs for me to award him the win.

So these don’t cut it.

Likewise, for gay marriage: con appears to clearly have an opinion on gay marriage from a religious point of view, but clearly argues a separate political belief that the government should not be involved. I can’t accept this either as there simply is not enough clear cut examples of the political and religious belief being aligned (I suspect pro could have done more by challenging potential hypocrisy).

Pro could have absolutely hammered con here on abortion - con came very close to basically admitting this was a religious belief - but I simply can’t award the debate on this sole basis, of a throwaway line, used as an example.

As a result, I don’t feel any of the examples were enough to show a political belief driven solely from a religious belief. Though I think this was an ultimately attainable and winnable condition on abortion.

Criterion
Con
Tie
Pro
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

RFD in comments

Criterion
Con
Tie
Pro
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

I need to first specify that con began each contention with what looks like a quote, prostitution = "immoral" for example. The problem is these quotes are not contained within the links given, and neither debater responded to inquiries about this. Thus I am forced to dismiss the quotes without effect to conduct or arguments.

BOP:
Here's the thing, con gets benefit of doubt. In English inspired and based are not synonymous, so something can be inspired by something without being based on it. ... Written before reading past the description, because I know it will become important.

Victory Condition:
For this debate Pro need not prove AND, merely OR. If one contention holds up, he wins (this may seem unfair, but it's literally in the resolution). ... At the end of the debate I've gone back to this, and pro failed to prove even one. The resolution is probably true, but pro failed to show it within five rounds.

Debate Gist:
Pro argues that anyone with religion wants pure theocracy in government, con says that's not true.

C1 (con): Border Fence
Pro argues con only believes this due to divine command theory. Con counters that he does not subscribe to such, as exemplified by his lack of support for laws against swearing (no stoning to death anyone who says the lord's name in vein, or wearing mixed fabrics, would have been a better example). Further con believes in it for reasons of national defense instead of religion. Pro counters that without Christianity no one would want to defend their borders (this doesn't hold up due to even a basic knowledge of world history, namely that the existence of nations long predates Christianity).
... When debating you sometimes hit a dud, in these cases it's better to drop it, rather than pretend it's a diamond.

C2 (con): Civil Unions and Marriage in General
That something shouldn't be legally regulated at all... *facepalm*
Pro tried to get a checkmate on the basis that con used the word believe in any context... *facepalm*
Con counters by reminding us that this debate is about political beliefs (like what he would cast a vote in support of), not separate religious beliefs (like going to church on Sunday, even if we won't be arrested for not). Pro complains that con refuting his argument was not fair (even doing this repeatedly through the remaining rounds, did not add any reason it would support the resolution).
... When debating you sometimes hit a dud, in these cases it's better to drop it, rather than pretend it's a diamond.

C3 (tie): Legalized Prostitution
This gets scary, as pro thinks morality cannot come from reason, and con thinks it is about obeying whatever the law of the land is. (this was how they argued, not to say what they believe outside of the debate)

The problem of an out of date profile is annoying, but even going by an opposition to prostitution, religion was never demonstrated to be the reason for that (nor even that religion is opposed... it probably is, but no source suggests such).

C4 (con): Politics
Not positive this was meant to be a serious contention, but was easily refuted with con's second paragraph in R2 (religious people do not exclusively follow religious laws).

Sources:
Con giving an outdated source sucks, but even his old political beliefs were not conclusively shown to be purely religious (or pro really should have shown the quote in the bible the border wall is based on). Plus, here's the big thing: if you have reason to challenge him to a debate, there should be something he's said somewhere to make you think the resolution is true, not merely his old profile from a dead website, or a religious conspiracy theory to which he happens to be listed as a member of said religion. So pro, next time quote him on something.

Better Contentions:
I like to point out how someone could have won, and abortion could have been a slam dunk had it been more than a tiny side point going into the final round of the debate. It's one that pro-life sources could have been used to highlight the direct religious connection to the political belief (something not done for any of the contentions... the term is warrant, as in there's evidence to suggest, not merely an assertion).

Criterion
Con
Tie
Pro
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

He named one but it wasn't one.