Instigator / Pro
34
1495
rating
47
debates
48.94%
won
Topic
#802

Ben Shapiro is not an intellectual

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
15
6
Better sources
10
10
Better legibility
5
5
Better conduct
4
5

After 5 votes and with 8 points ahead, the winner is...

Sparrow
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Three days
Max argument characters
30,000
Voting period
One week
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
26
1500
rating
16
debates
40.63%
won
Description

No information

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

lnformal debate. Entertaining read.

I have said before that I wish our voting system allowed for weighting style as style is what most often separates the proficient debates from the popular debates- this voter cares more about style than spelling or grammar.

Pro's R1 is all style- hyperbolic, hypercritical, & funny. As somebody who doesn't see much BS, I enjoyed the impression without really knowing how accurate the satire. The argument boils down to BS is often fallacious.
no evidence.

Con asks for evidence

R2- Pro gives 3 YouTube links which serve his case well enough, yes they demonstrate poor reasoning but very rational arguments seldom persuade in modern political punditry. The problem I have with Pro's approach is the use of anti-intellectual arguments - bluster, satire to condemn another's lack of intellectual integrity. Pro basically lists some logical fallacies and then invites us to listen for those fallacies on YouTube. I think three fallacious quotes from BS torn down to premise and conclusion, fallacy and correction would have been far more effective.

Pro really needed to offer a solid definition for intellectual- Wikipedia's lines up nicely with Pro's case. Con missed an opportunity to offer some definition that might have blown Pro's case up pretty effectively. In the absence of definitions, I have to prefer Pro's inferred definition over Con's.

Arguments to Pro

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

RFD in comments

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

For the love of all that is good and holy - I encourage all debaters to define their terms! It appears pro is arguing that being an “intellectual” means engaging in honest discussion, and not engaging in oversimplifications and intellectual dishonesty.

Con appears to be arguing mostly that being an intellectual means being smart - specifically that he skipped two grades as the only evidenced example.

Pro, on the other hand provides examples of key errors in logical thinking and oversimplification BS makes,

There’s a whole tonne of factual claims made by both sides that I simply cannot assess for validity. You need to source your facts when it’s not clearly self evident which side is valid. I literally can’t vote when one side says “Ben is this”, then the other says “no I’m not”, which comprises the majority of this debate

Saying that, pros videos clearly showed BS has a tendency for lumping all extreme positions to leftists. Con didn’t do enough or provide any substantial sources to counter this summary. Even his one objection to a video didn’t seem to be fully relevant to the discussion.

On these grounds - pro managed to show BS acts intellectually dishonestly - and con doesn’t manage to counter. As no side defines what being an intellectual means - pro side is clearly closer to my understanding.

As a result - arguments to pro.

Nearly award conduct to con though, but it wasn’t severe enough in my opinion.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

No one wins. Pro could have won this so easily but didn't even quote the videos he used. There was so much more material out there that was better than what he gave instead of abortion was equivocated to slave-owners and don't get me started on Con. He wrote this as a rebuttal to his claim "He only referrers to some. Nowhere in their did he say "all."". Saying he never meant all doesn't mean Pro's point isn't valid. I wrote about 3k characters when I reached to that point and then realise why am I even doing this? Now this is what my debate is. A tie because both are incapable of debating. One can't clearly lay out his argument and the other can't even rebut the main argument brought up.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

At no point in the entire debate did Con explain what an intellectual is. Only in the last Round, which Pro couldn't reply to, did Con even hint at how Ben Shapiro 'thinks rational' or any such thing. Pro used sources and highlighted what exactly in the YT video was being 'exposed'. Con doesn't even say what is in the YT links he uses, he just posts 2 in 2 different Rounds and says 'look how much Ben Shapiro backs things up with facts'... Okay, what things?
Pro highlights that cherry-picking points and holding strange views like Zionism, without being able to back them up would mean we are to default Shapiro (if Shapiro is these things) as a non-intellectual. This truly shifted BoP onto Con, even though it already was on Con had this been correctly written as 'is an intellectual' and with Sparrow as The 'red' side (Opposition) despite being the Instigator.