Instigator
Points: 28

It is possible to be a Christian Jew

Finished

The voting period has ended

After 4 votes the winner is ...
Sparrow
Debate details
Publication date
Last update
Category
Religion
Time for argument
Three days
Voting system
Open voting
Voting period
One week
Point system
Four points
Rating mode
Rated
Characters per argument
30,000
Points: 19
Description
No information
Round 1
Published:

Since it is possible "by descent" to be Jewish without actually practicing the religion, it is possible to be ethnically Jewish but to practice Christianity.

Published:
Racial decent is an illusion.  There is no Jewish race from a genetic point of view and judging them by location is nationalism.  

Furthermore, the people you're referring to are not Jews, but rather Hebrews, which is a very broad and ill defined term.  

At best, we could say that people from certain tribes at a certain time were Hebrews.  As for Judaism, The only way to be a Jew is by taking on Judaism either literally or at least culturally, either way, you would then be unable to be Christian.  
Round 2
Published:
Racial decent is an illusion. 
We're off to a bad start.

There is no Jewish race from a genetic point of view
That's not what everyone else in the universe seems to think. The definition of "Jew" proves this.

The only way to be a Jew is by taking on Judaism either literally or at least culturally, either way, you would then be unable to be Christian.  
Christianity is like an extension of Judaism if you think about it. It's not that far fetched that you could have an ethnically Jewish person who believes Jesus actually was the messiah but still identifies heavily with Jewish culture and heritage.
Published:
Ahh, definition games.  That will not meet your burden the topic is "to be" which means that definition is not enough.  

Identifying as something is not the same as being something.  

Definitions are ad populum and the populace does not agree with your assessment of the terms. 

Christianity is not an extension, it's a denomination.  While they share a beliefs, one is not another.  Jews don't believe that Christ is god and that differs heavily from Christianity.  
Round 3
Published:
But if being an ethnic Jew isn't actually about race, then literally all it is is an identify. Therefore if what you say is true, literally all that's required is for someone to be both a christian and a Jew is to identify as both.
Published:
My point is that personal identities are not being.  I could identify as a hunk of cheese or a dog or a cat or a boat or a chair, etc, etc.  


That doesn't actually cause me "to be" any of those things.  

The state of being is directly cause by a thing's ontology.  


So I'm a chair because I meet an objective standard (I am a thing that can objectively be sat upon by humans and I meet certain special requirements that are generally found in chairs)   No matter how much I call myself a chair, I cannot meet this objective standards. 



It's the same for being Jewish or Christian.  


There is no objective standard for being an ethnic or cultural Jew.  Races are arbitrary.  There is no "jewish gene" that can objectively make someone jewish.  To be jewish. 



Added:
--> @Ramshutu
You might be able to argue that my argument wasn't satisfying to you. However, you can't argue that I made less of an argument than my opponent. I had more data. I explained everything with more detail. Everything you're saying is a lie. Like I said, you're proving my point that your standard is vacuous.
As for the circle thing, I always chuckle when people make this accusation. It takes two people to form a circular argument Ramshutu. Remember that.
I've said my piece. I never expected to convince you. I just want to shine a spotlight on a piece of illogic that I think you have.
Contender
#29
Added:
--> @swetepete540
*******************************************************************
>Reported Vote: swetepete540 // Mod action: Removed
>Points Awarded: 6 points to Pro for arguments, sources, and conduct
>Reason for Decision: It is possible to be a jew but practice christianity.
>Reason for Mod Action: The voter does not justify any of the points they award in any clear manner, and it appears they are voting based on a pre-judgement of the topic. Per the site's voting policy: A vote bomb is a vote "cast based on a prejudgment of or prior opinion on the topic. Vote bombs that are reported will be removed." The user can find the site's voting policies at this link: https://www.debateart.com/rules
************************************************************************
#28
Added:
--> @Wrick-It-Ralph
Unfortunately, you seem either unwilling or unable to accept the errors for which I voted for your opponent, and your mostly just going around in the same circles you have in the beginning:
- Pro used definitions to explain how Christianity and Jewishness are not mutually exclusive. He did that via definitions.
- You asserted a number of “facts” about race and genetics that were unsupported by any links, sources or data : meaning you didn't warrant your claim.
Your argument appears to be that you feel I should have accepted your argument at face value despite you not warranting it, despite your opponent warranting his, and despite the fact you shared none of this subsequent detail in your debate. Your whole argument appears predicated on the notion that your opponent has to do more to show that the word Jew can imply ethnicity, than show an authorative definition showing it so.
I completely understand your argument - it’s just really bad. You don’t seem to get that you have to warrant your claims. You can assert that Jewishness doesn’t exist, or assert that there is no genetic standard, or assert that Jews don’t even exist - you need to warrant those claims - I’m not going to manufacture your evidence for you. That’s your job, and your failure to do so is why you lost.
#27
Added:
--> @Ramshutu
Hogwash.
"Racial decent is an illusion. There is no Jewish race from a genetic point of view and judging them by location is nationalism.
Furthermore, the people you're referring to are not Jews, but rather Hebrews, which is a very broad and ill defined term.
At best, we could say that people from certain tribes at a certain time were Hebrews. As for Judaism, The only way to be a Jew is by taking on Judaism either literally or at least culturally, either way, you would then be unable to be Christian. "
"Ahh, definition games. That will not meet your burden the topic is "to be" which means that definition is not enough.
Identifying as something is not the same as being something."
"My point is that personal identities are not being. I could identify as a hunk of cheese or a dog or a cat or a boat or a chair, etc, etc.
That doesn't actually cause me "to be" any of those things.
The state of being is directly cause by a thing's ontology.
So I'm a chair because I meet an objective standard (I am a thing that can objectively be sat upon by humans and I meet certain special requirements that are generally found in chairs) No matter how much I call myself a chair, I cannot meet this objective standards.
It's the same for being Jewish or Christian.
There is no objective standard for being an ethnic or cultural Jew. Races are arbitrary. There is no "jewish gene" that can objectively make someone jewish. To be jewish. "
Everything I just said a moment ago is explicitly mentioned in these arguments. Since you're to blind to turn the tab over and see them, I brought them to you. If you want to vote on vacuous definitions, that's your prerogative, but logically it makes you about as rational as a blind faith theist.
Contender
#26
Added:
--> @Wrick-It-Ralph
What you’re doing, is throwing out all the things that were in your head when you wrote your argument - but didn’t put in your debate.
The resolution is “it’s possible to be a Christian Jew”
If Jew is an ethnicity - and Christianity is a faith - then the two are not mutually exclusive and as such it’s possible to be both. Right?
Your argument is that it’s not possible to be a Jew by ethnicity - your raising the existential argument here, and you don’t back it up with any data. Hence you lose
#25
Added:
--> @Ramshutu
I did reject his definition.
I also explained, through ontology and identity, why we should treat it as a religion.
This exemplifies the fact that I did in fact make sufficient arguments, but you simply hand waved them off.
Contender
#24
Added:
--> @Ramshutu
You're missing the point. If identity implies existence, then literally anything can be true by definition. That's why I said you're not using true semantics. There needs to be logical entailment. A bunch of people saying that they descend from a jewish race because their blood line contains a bunch of theists who subscribe to Judaism does not make them a race. Even the wildly accepted definition for a race doesn't fit and there is no objective way to judge somebody a race. It's an arbitrary made up definition.
Contender
#23
Added:
--> @Wrick-It-Ralph
When he is arguing you can be a Christian Jew - it depends on what the definition of Jew you use. Words can have different meaning, and selecting a dictionary definition of the word “Jew” that denotes origin or ethnicity is inherently compatible with being Christian. When it comes to what words mean - the dictionary is authorative, so this sets up a solid case for your opponent - despite your objection.
Saying this, I could have given him a source point, I chose not too, as it wasn’t a particularly substantial usage of sources, or particularly well executed: allocating source points would mean him getting 5 points instead of 3 - and there wasn’t that big of a gap between you two to warrant it.
In terms of how you could have won: two ways. You could have objected to the definition and presented an argument that explained why we should treat the definition as meaning faith alone, or you could have presented a source that supported your contention that Jews aren’t really a race - preferably whilst giving a reason why I should ignore the dictionary definition.
#22
Added:
Arguments and Sources (my opinions, not moderation policy):
Evidence is used in convert assertions into arguments. If there's enough good evidence, sources may be awarded. These two things can end up going to opposite sides (Like 'oh wow this person researched their case well, but their logic still didn't line up so well'). However winning sources is somewhat about the effort differential; they're never awarded merely for 'had a source.' It's also important to note they are not awarded for source spamming (I actually hold it against people).
#21
Added:
--> @Ramshutu
Well, let's just put the vote aside. I don't care about that. You voted for who you believed to be right and I wouldn't tell you to do otherwise. That doesn't mean I agree with your RFD.
Okay, I'll humor you. what could I have done differently to make my argument more convincing? I don't see how a dictionary link makes his argument any better than mine. My argument covered way more relevant details and had a clear methodology clearly distinguishing the difference between ontology and definitions. I don't see how my argument was unintuitive nor was the language confusing in such a way where I needed a bunch of dictionary links myself. Furthermore, if it was his flimsy link that won him the debate, then why not a source point instead of an argument point? That last one was arbitrary, but it just crossed my mind. lol
Contender
#20
Added:
--> @Wrick-It-Ralph
Unfortunately - It wasnt me, but you who let your opponent get away with this argument. His argument wasn’t great - but as you didn’t challenge the definition with any evidence - his position wins. That you want me to rule in your favor, despite you having no arguments against the definition that was warranted, and offering no specific evidence against it, is more than problematic.
#19
Added:
--> @Ramshutu
I could write a whole debate argument in mentalese and you would accept it if I defined a couple of symbols. lol
Contender
#18
Added:
--> @Ramshutu
You're just proving how fallible your standard is. If some random person can just post a single dictionary definition in the face of logical arguments and get away with it, then your standard is arbitrary. You're worshipping dictionaries at this point. You might as well slap a Bible sticker on it so people know what it really is to you.
Contender
#17
Added:
--> @Wrick-It-Ralph
Again, no. The standard is basic standards of warrant; despite your claims to the contrary - it can’t be used to justify any arbitrary point.
There’s only so many ways I can explain that his argument was based on a source that justified his claim: and yours was not. /shrug.
#16
Added:
--> @Ramshutu
I'm not saying that you shouldn't have your own standard. I'm just saying your standard is vacuous. I'm for subjective voting, so if it helps you vote better and you're hell bent on it, then that's your prerogative. On a logical level, however, I find that your method is not as objective as you might think it is. I guess that's the best way to put that. The core thing that bugs me is that you think that garbage of an argument he touted actually passes for a good semantic argument.
Contender
#15
#4
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
Simple semantic argument:
Pro argues Jewish can be used as a racial term - this is supported by the definition, and given a broad basic historical context is also in my view intuitive.
Con argues Jew cannot be used as a racial term. While I would have been sympathetic to a more detailed thesis on the non existence of the Jewish race, or a more semantic argument - this argument was clearly not well enough warranted and does not pass muster.
Without more clearly defined sources of his race claims, pro wins. I would also point out argument ad populum is valid for factual claims - but I think popular definitions are clearly relevant.
As a result of this, pros semantics are clearly stronger - arguments to pro.
#3
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
I admit that I want to leave this tied, but careful review does not support that award.
C1 (pro): Jews as a race
Quite possible. Calling the dictionary wrong is fine, but a reason to disbelieve it would have shifted this away from pro. ... Pro, you probably should have cited the existence of Christian Jews in Israel (not basing my argument award on this, it's standalone advice). The base fact that something is popular, does not guarantee it to be wrong.
Further, con's later argument argued that we are things if we meet the criteria. Even if genetic lines are horrible to consider, they still verify the basis for someone to be genetically one thing (or many things) but not certain others.
C2 (con): Jews as an identify
This did not get much headway. While on the surface accepting what people define themselves as is good and reasonable, con used the chair analogy, which shows how flawed it would be to just accept broad claims (e.g., Donald Trump claimed to be Native American back in '93, but not even his supporters take him seriously). So at least within this argument, some random person not of the blood or religion proclaiming himself or herself to be both does not confirm they have any validity to do so.
Conclusion: C1 is enough, as C2 does not invalidate it, which leaves an outright likely way for someone to be both things.
#2
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
Pro states that one can be of Jewish descent and then be a Christian. Con says that race is an illusion. Neither side has sources to back up their claims. Pro says that either being Jewish is an identity or a race, and either way one can be both Jewish and Christian. Con shows that identifying as something doesn’t actually make you that thing.
This was a pretty flat Debate, but neither sides gave any real evidence for their position. This is a tie.
#1
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
What was missing in this debate was evidence. Pro began by providing a definition of what a Jew is and explained how someone can be a Jew by descent and believe in Christianity. Con's reply was to show that race is an illusion. This is a big claim and without a good source to back it up, I'm left to agree with Pro's definition of Jew. Arguments to pro because con could not offer a counter to the definition and failed to show how it is impossible to identify as both a Jew and a Christian.