Instigator / Pro
28
1614
rating
17
debates
85.29%
won
Topic
#841

Girls joining the BoyScouts Of America

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
12
6
Better sources
8
8
Better legibility
4
4
Better conduct
4
0

After 4 votes and with 10 points ahead, the winner is...

Pinkfreud08
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
4
Time for argument
Three days
Max argument characters
15,000
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
18
1616
rating
32
debates
62.5%
won
Description

Rules:

- Keep it civil

- No semantics ( they hurt my head )

- The BOP is shared since I have to prove that it's a good idea and Con has to prove why it's a bad idea.

As a former Boy Scout, and the father of an Eagle Scout, it's sad to see the program changing.

Does (did) the Boy Scouts offer a great benefit to boys? Absolutely! It's not just the "title" of Eagle Scout that one can put on resumes, but it's the life lessons one learns while on the journey to Eagle.

So, then. what about girls? Aren't girls "missing out"? Shouldn't they also learn these same "life lessons" as boys? Absolutely! Doe sthat mean they should automatically do the exact same things and participate in the exact same programs as boys? Absolutely not.

there should be programs tailored to girls that teach them life lessons, life skills similar to BSA. If Girl Scouts can't do that, then that's a failure on Girl Scouts. That doesn't mean girls should automatically be allowed in Boy Scouts.

I have twice as many daughters as I do sons. I (we) teach our girls
(a) life skills
(b) boys and girls, men and women, males and females are different. They just are. It's at the core of who they are-- their biology. As a result, there are just some things that are different among boys and girls. There are just some things boys can't do that girls/women can ("Sorry son....you can't get pregnant.). There are just some things girls can't do that boys can ("Sorry, daughter...you can't father a child").

Boys need "safe" places where boys can be boys and just be themselves.
Likewise, so do girls.

You put a group of 10 boys together and you will see them do things...crazy things..."boy" things. You put a few girls in the mix and the whole dynamic changes. I've seen it. We've gone on troop outings with just the boy scouts and they do all sorts of things....they smell...they fart...they belch....they help each other out...they tease each other...they fight, they play....they wear they same clothes for days on end. You add some girls (which we've done in the past when we let the Venture crew join us), and things change.

No need to bother admin, especially on an FF... However for clarity:

Con decided to drop the entire pro case without challenge (or even being read, as his #2 and #7 was already contradicted by pro's #2), and forfeiture.

Pretty straight forward, a benefit made available to twice the current population, at the expense of a negative effect applied to precisely zero people... Con's traditional values issue for example, is done without showing any way even one traditional value would be harmed (appeals to tradition need an actual appeal, like what would be harmed if girls learned how to tie knots?) ... The distracted angle was not shown to be meaningful and was countered with basic logic.

Note on the distracted clause: Pro technically if there were so many more gay people in the scouts, they would not be the ones banned, you would be for being so distracting to them; that is the standard con's logic proposes if taken to the conclusion. An additional point you could have done (not that it was needed), is since boy scouts are about teaching discipline, learning to deal with distractions (which I know, your number 2 prevents anyway, as the proposal specifically did not include the troops being mixed) would lead to greater self improvement for boys (which then goes back to traditional values being harmed by not doing it!).

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@Barney

Call this is a Mandela effect, but I swear, I remember being able to change RFDS a while back.

I believe you can ask one of the mods to delete your vote so that you may change it, I did it once.

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@Pinkfreud08

Just re-read it, and at one point yeah. I do wish we could edit our RFDs.

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@Barney

Did you misspell which opponent you were referring to?

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@Pinkfreud08

I never considered in terms of job applications. I know that the Silver Award is indicative of similar qualities of an Eagle Scout. At some point I heard that an Eagle Scout award could start you one pay grade higher if you joined the military. They both present opportunities for kids who would otherwise grow up more boxed in, and are both good for college and scholarship applications. One of the reasons the BSA has made the recent switch I think is so that its more convenient for some parents to bring their kids into the cub scout program, though I have not thought too much as to the possibility of better implementations.

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@Snoopy

Don't get me wrong, some people do enjoy venture crews and there's nothing wrong with that however many would rather join the scout's organization due to them doing different activities, being able to earn ranks, and being more accessible at an early age.

Even if Venture Crews were the same concept I'd still state that girls should be allowed to join scouts since there isn't a good enough reason not to allow them to join.

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@Snoopy

They may enjoy the ranks, however stating you're a silver rank on a venture crew really isn't going to help too much on job applications.

Stating your an eagle scout however from what I've heard can definitely get you hired above other people.

Camp programs are mostly learning experiences and the earning of merit badges.

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@Pinkfreud08

I didn't think you'd focus on what you perceive as good or lacking in the program since you are already interested in changes to the BSA. So yes, there aren't "ranks", like tenderfoot, life, and eagle, but you still earned your way up and are presented the highest award at a court of honor in recognition of your achievement. I have spoken to people who proudly earned their silver and loved it. They had meetings, and went on what many would consider to be some hardcore trips. I'm not sure what kind of camp programs were available specifically for venturing. The BSA caters other organizations that make use of its land and staffing too, and you used to be able to go along to boy scout events upon request on an individual basis. The relatively low numbers are an issue I've heard of as well, not sure how to start one if you don't have it in your area. It could have been promoted better I suppose.

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@Snoopy

While this is true however there are a few solid reasons why this is inconvenient for girls

1. Venture Crews can't earn ranks.

2. Venture Crews can't go to the various summer camps.

3. Venture Crews ( correct me if I'm wrong ) can't have meetings.

4. Venture Crews aren't exactly easy to find nor to join. At least in my area.

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@Snoopy

ok cool, BUT this is about the boy scouts.

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@Pinkfreud08

I have a suggestion for you. Before the BSA allowed girls into the regular program, they still had a program called Venturing that girls and boys could join, go on adventures, and earn rank in a similar fashion. While girls were excluded from earning the traditional boy scout ranks like the famous Eagle Scout, they could still go to events with the regular boy lead troops. In this way, the traditional experience was preserved, girls could still attend boy lead programs, and girls and boys could still opt for a unique experience in the Venturing program. Now, if I understand correctly, according to recent changes girls can join the regular program and I suppose technically that means boy lead troops are no longer an official part of the Boy Scouts of America.