Don't be a Logic Zombie!!!

Author: 3RU7AL

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Mopac
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@3RU7AL
The law is written on my heart.

I do not steal.

I do not murder.


I do not need laws. Laws are for...

"The lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;"


And I am certainly not trying to do way with governments, who were put in place to deal with such people.

I am not a politician or a statesmen. The people of that world can debate about laws. I don't like the idea of the law being enforced hy robots because I don't think it would leave room for mercy. I think there should be room for mercy.

Not that it matters what I think.


Not everyone is going to purify their heart of defilements for the sake of God, so it would not be reasonable to expect that everyone is going to be a hesychast.


3RU7AL
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@Mopac
And I am certainly not trying to do way with governments, who were put in place to deal with such people.
Ok, so, not an anarchist.

I am not a politician or a statesmen. The people of that world can debate about laws. I don't like the idea of the law being enforced hy robots because I don't think it would leave room for mercy. I think there should be room for mercy.
I'm pretty sure we could build "mercy" into the law so it would be implemented without implicit bias.

Not that it matters what I think.
I care very deeply what you think.  You seem to be a very intelligent and thoughtful person.

Not everyone is going to purify their heart of defilements for the sake of God, so it would not be reasonable to expect that everyone is going to be a hesychast.
This sounds perfectly reasonable.

94 days later

K_Michael
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I've never personally reached an absurd conclusion through logic.
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@3RU7AL
A logic zombie is someone who blindly follows logic no matter how ridiculous the conclusions may be.

For example, you can't just blindly follow logic into idiotic beliefs like determinism and solipsism. These are obviously intellectual black holes with no utilitarian value whatsoever.

A logic zombie is just a person who can't face reality and who won't be honest with themselves.

A logic zombie is someone who never takes personal responsibility for their actions and instead blames logic for their moronic and misguided attacks on well established and incontrovertible truth.

You can't depend on logic for everything. People know deep down what is right and what is wrong. You know the truth. You just need the courage to face the facts.

I believe that I can achieve all of the things that you say logic cannot achieve if it is used correctly, what do you think? 

13 days later

3RU7AL
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
I believe that I can achieve all of the things that you say logic cannot achieve if it is used correctly, what do you think? 
Please demonstrate.

1276 days later

3RU7AL
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
(IFF) free-will is proportional to intelligence (animals and infants have less, adult humans have more)

(AND) free-will is proportional to moral culpability (without free-will there is no moral culpability)

(THEN) intelligence is proportional to moral culpability.
Lemming
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@AI judges thought

I recall in Jade Empire video game,
There was an opportunity to debate in the game,
The three judges of the debate had preferences, that you had to juggle during the debate, to get them all on your side,
'But the game had limited options/variables,
Though 'possible human experience in court can also have limited variables,
'Simplest justice, such as whether a person stole or not,
But then can become as in Oblivion video game, I mis clicked I didn't mean to steal that apple
"THEN PAY WITH YOUR BLOOD!" - Guard

I recall in Ultima video game,
There was a robot statue of justice, that a village used to judge people,
Villain in game had reprogrammed the judge,
One way to win quest was to discover this sabotage.
3RU7AL
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@Lemming
One way to win quest was to discover this sabotage.
i love it
K_Michael
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@3RU7AL
"NTURTTGgTS" is perfectly logical.
A perfectly logical conclusion would be one that can be derived purely from logic. Er go, your "logic zombie" would be capable of reaching it.
3RU7AL
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@K_Michael
A perfectly logical conclusion would be one that can be derived purely from logic. Er go, your "logic zombie" would be capable of reaching it.
well, you do need some sort of premise
3RU7AL
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@K_Michael
I've never personally reached an absurd conclusion through logic.
do you have any thoughts regarding solipsism ?
K_Michael
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well, you do need some sort of premise
Generally, the starting premise is taken to be Cogito er go sum.
3RU7AL
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@K_Michael
Generally, the starting premise is taken to be Cogito er go sum.
(IFF) i think (THEN) i know that something ("the thinker") exists

this i cannot doubt

(IFF) i know some things (THEN) i also do NOT know some things

at that point, it is an ontological choice to categorize the things i currently do not know, along with all the things i will never know into the term NOUMENON

NOUMENON includes the logically-necessary causal singularity from which all events spawn
sadolite
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There is logic and there is flawed logic. For example: Flawed logic says there are more than 2 genders. Or multi trillion dollar deficit spending by govt doesn't cause inflation.
K_Michael
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@sadolite
There are 2 sexes (outside of chromosomal disorders). Gender is a social construct, as evidenced by how gender roles differ from culture to culture and by species. As such, gender is only limited by how many society comes up with.
Shila
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@K_Michael
--> @sadolite
There are 2 sexes (outside of chromosomal disorders). Gender is a social construct, as evidenced by how gender roles differ from culture to culture and by species. As such, gender is only limited by how many society comes up with.
You have more than a gender issue. You have a species dysphoria 

What is species dysphoria?
Species dysphoria is the experience of dysphoria and dysmorphia involving the belief of one's body being the wrong species. A person may not be happy with their body image and may hallucinate or think of themselves as an animal of some sort.

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@Shila
Yep, there's always some nutjob into something.

There's one who reckons that they are a French Canadian Catholic.

How bizarre is that?

This is known as Theonationalismdysphoria.
K_Michael
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@Shila
Species dysphoria is the experience of dysphoria and dysmorphia involving the belief of one's body being the wrong species. A person may not be happy with their body image and may hallucinate or think of themselves as an animal of some sort.
Not exactly. There is no animal on Earth currently that I would prefer to be over a human, but I do wish I could freely augment my body to add a tail, etc. Technology isn't up to snuff for that right now (though crispr is the most promising).
I also don't believe that I am an animal or have an animal soul or whatever. I am human, and see myself as currently human. But I think we can do better.

K_Michael
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@3RU7AL
I've never personally reached an absurd conclusion through logic.
do you have any thoughts regarding solipsism ?
Solipsism is almost always a hypocritical belief. Under solipsism, people say something along the lines of, "only my mind exists, everything I think I know is false/unknowable." But then they go on living their life essentially the same. They use clocks to make appointments on time. They look both ways when crossing the street. They tie their shoes when they see that it is untied.
Rest assured, if I thought the entire universe was inside my own imagination, I would devote my efforts to making some major renovations (hallucinate a better "reality").
I say almost always hypocritical because I'm sure some people have taken the belief seriously in their personal lives, but they aren't the ones arguing it online.
3RU7AL
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@K_Michael
Solipsism is almost always a hypocritical belief.
K_Michael
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@3RU7AL
Above all, don’t ask what to believe—ask what to anticipate. Every question of belief should flow from a question of anticipation, and that question of anticipation should be the center of the inquiry. Every guess of belief should begin by flowing to a specific guess of anticipation, and should continue to pay rent in future anticipations. If a belief turns deadbeat, evict it.

If one's belief in solipsism doesn't affect what they anticipate observing, then all they have is a belief in their head that says "solipsism is real", completely disconnected from their other beliefs. These "floating beliefs" are completely useless.

For me, solipsism can't be disproven; assuming it is true, then all of my scientific knowledge of how the universe behaves is in my imagination, and may not tie to how the universe that my brain actually exists in functions.

Here's a similar problem involving the Matrix's version of simulation theory.
MORPHEUS: For the longest time, I wouldn't believe it. But then I saw the fields with my own eyes, watched them liquefy the dead so they could be fed intravenously to the living -
NEO (politely): Excuse me, please.
MORPHEUS: Yes, Neo?
NEO: I've kept quiet for as long as I could, but I feel a certain need to speak up at this point. The human body is the most inefficient source of energy you could possibly imagine. The efficiency of a power plant at converting thermal energy into electricity decreases as you run the turbines at lower temperatures. If you had any sort of food humans could eat, it would be more efficient to burn it in a furnace than feed it to humans. And now you're telling me that their food is the bodies of the dead, fed to the living? Haven't you ever heard of the laws of thermodynamics?
MORPHEUS: Where did you hear about the laws of thermodynamics, Neo?
NEO: Anyone who's made it past one science class in high school ought to know about the laws of thermodynamics!
MORPHEUS: Where did you go to high school, Neo?
(Pause.)
NEO: ...in the Matrix.
MORPHEUS: The machines tell elegant lies.
(Pause.)
NEO (in a small voice): Could I please have a real physics textbook?
MORPHEUS: There is no such thing, Neo. The universe doesn't run on math.
3RU7AL
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@K_Michael
Could I please have a real physics textbook?
i guess morpheus doesn't have any engineers on their team ?

look,

we don't know how this thing works, at a fundamental level

we don't know how gravity works

we certainly don't know how dark matter and dark energy works

heck, even particle physics, which is an extremely practical framework, is a broad oversimplification

this very well could all be some sort of manifestation of brahman's eternal dream

and denial of that very real probability does not buy you any advantage logically or philosophically

i mean,

false confidence, and 100% "certainty" about "reality is really really realzies" will, in many cases, yield social benefits 

but if that's what you're aiming for

you probably shouldn't engage epistemological questions
K_Michael
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@3RU7AL
we don't know how this thing works, at a fundamental level
I don't profess that scientists know everything, and I know even less. But to take the remaining uncertainty and say, therefore, this is "brahman's eternal dream" makes no sense.
It's still a possibility, but until I see evidence to promote that theory over any other, I'll stick to what I got.


3RU7AL
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@K_Michael
this very well could all be some sort of manifestation of brahman's eternal dream
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@3RU7AL
Not following the talk, here to comment on the topic itself.

To be fair, we follow logic all the time, but logic is not to be blamed as it is not sentient. The only "downside" is that it is unforgiving and everlasting, which is in many cases an upside as well.

In fact, reality is built upon assumptions. What you "deeply believe" are just assumptions. One can act according to the present by detecting assumptions and using them as the boundaries. To be fair, can you remove them?

To the assumptions that enable me to believe there is a society here like this, all the "logic zombies" either are geniuses writing books, are in a ward, or should be in a ward. That is my impression. I do not believe one can live without subconsciously having assumptions in the worldview model.
K_Michael
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@3RU7AL
this very well could all be some sort of manifestation of brahman's eternal dream
Once again, I am not dismissing that possibility, but there has been no evidence to make that the most likely explanation.
Athias
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@K_Michael
Solipsism is almost always a hypocritical belief. Under solipsism, people say something along the lines of, "only my mind exists, everything I think I know is false/unknowable." But then they go on living their life essentially the same. They use clocks to make appointments on time. They look both ways when crossing the street. They tie their shoes when they see that it is untied.
I'm not understanding how this is hypocritical?

Rest assured, if I thought the entire universe was inside my own imagination, I would devote my efforts to making some major renovations (hallucinate a better "reality").
One can already do this. It's called, "perspective."

I say almost always hypocritical because I'm sure some people have taken the belief seriously in their personal lives, but they aren't the ones arguing it online.
Hello, I'm Athias. Nice to meet you.

If one's belief in solipsism doesn't affect what they anticipate observing, then all they have is a belief in their head that says "solipsism is real", completely disconnected from their other beliefs. These "floating beliefs" are completely useless.
Useless in what context?

For me, solipsism can't be disproven; assuming it is true, then all of my scientific knowledge of how the universe behaves is in my imagination, and may not tie to how the universe that my brain actually exists in functions.
Can you control for the experience you have of your own brain, and the universe in which it functions, absent of your imagination?
K_Michael
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Rest assured, if I thought the entire universe was inside my own imagination, I would devote my efforts to making some major renovations (hallucinate a better "reality").
One can already do this. It's called, "perspective."

Are there unicorns in your "perspective"? I demand unicorns!
I say almost always hypocritical because I'm sure some people have taken the belief seriously in their personal lives, but they aren't the ones arguing it online.
Hello, I'm Athias. Nice to meet you.
How does your belief in solipsism affect your everyday life? I genuinely am curious.
Useless in what context?
If your belief in solipsism actually does change how you behave, then it isn't useless, but every person I've met in real life that claims to believe in it (admittedly only 3) behaves exactly the same as I would expect of someone who thinks reality is real. They are polite to strangers, care about politics, climate change, all stuff that under solipsism does actually exist. As far as I can tell, it's like saying "blergle is true." They have a belief in there head labeled that, but it doesn't lead to anything. It doesn't inform other beliefs and isn't informed by any. It might as well not exist, except for all of the time the loudly proclaim "Blergle is true!"
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@K_Michael
Flawed logic. Gender since the beginning of time has meant male and female. It is only in the last 10 years that the word gender has been high jacked and redefined to mean something else to push a LGBTQ political narrative.  No one ever separated biological sex with gender before that since the dawn of time.
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@sadolite
Gender since the beginning of time has meant male and female.
"Gender" stems from the Old French "Gendre" and was originally used only in the context of grammatical gender, such as how "mesa" or table is gendered feminine in Spanish. It was only in the 20th century that gender became a synonym for sex, as sex became a more erotic and taboo word. The LGBTQ community has once again changed the definition of the word to make a distinction between the concepts of "sex" the genetic and biological based dimorphism of chromosomes and genitalia, and "gender" which they have adopted to mean the social construct of roles and expectation surrounding one's perceived sex.
No one ever separated biological sex with gender before that since the dawn of time.
There are several historical cultures that had three gender roles.
the word gender has been high jacked and redefined
What word is being used doesn't actually matter. We could use "florbalon" instead of gender, if that makes things less confusing for you. Unless you have a chromosomal disorder, you are born as either the male or female sex. As you grow up and mentally develop, you will learn a florbalon role based on your sexual characteristics, which in Western culture means the feminine florbalon plays with dolls and wears pink and the masculine florbalon plays with trucks and wears blue. Some people will grow up feeling at odds with their assigned florbalon; a boy might wish to wear skirts, or a girl to wrestle with the neighborhood boys. The florbalon role of wearing skirts isn't intrinsic to the human species, we didn't even invent pants until we started riding horses. So there is no reason to say that the stereotypical florbalon roles need to be strictly matched to sex.