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@PGA2.0
Now explain why a Roman historian used the title of the Jewish messiah.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Not what the Scriptures teach and where are you getting this information from? Are you making it up?No writer saw Jesus they all either wrote stories they heard or about believers.
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@PGA2.0
The scriptures are not extra biblical.
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@3RU7AL
Again, it does not list any prophecies/predictions except vaguely and that in regards to Groundhog Day. It gives no stats on the 100% accuracy rate that you cited in your previous post. It also describes how he uses the latest weather technology, yet how does he predict things that will happen years, decades, centuries in advance, and how would you verify he could since he lives in our day and age. And how do his predictions tell of the fall of a people or the specifics that would take place before this happened, sometimes hundreds of years before the fact?You're moving the goal-posts. You only stipulated,
I'm not moving the goal posts. I'm trying to establish the difference between what you cited as prophecy and Bible prophecy.
Show me a human/humans who has/have made hundreds of prediction before the facts that have come to pass.You never said, "inspired by a god" or "years and or centuries in advance" or "100% accuracy".
The Bible claims it. I make a distinction between the differences between what you call predictions and what the Bible authors wrote down and claimed inspired from/by God (God said). The Bible says God does not lie, so if these are God's words or revelation then they are 100% accurate. I gave you Daniel 9:24-27, Daniel 2, and Daniel 12 as test cases. Show the interpretation the Preterist uses is wrong or not reasonable and logical. You can't refute these prophecies reasonably or logically. That is my claim.
Really, if you're just going to change you criteria every time I give you an answer, this is going to be a very lolong conversation.
I'm not changing it. Biblical prophecy claims to be a revelation from God. It claims all Bible prophecy never had its origins by men but were inspired by God.
I mean, sea-level rise was predicted "years in advance" and "before it came to pass", does that count?
It is common sense if the temperature of the earth rises.
But predicting where the Messiah would be born, when, details of His life, and how He would die, instigated but not physically put to death by His own people but at the hands of the Romans. How do you predict this stuff?
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@PGA2.0
But predicting where the Messiah would be born, when, details of His life, and how He would die, instigated but not physically put to death by His own people but at the hands of the Romans. How do you predict this stuff?
It's clearly impossible.
What is not impossible is for the evanglists to deliberately add or tweak their accounts to make it appear a 'prophesy' was fulfilled. Both Luke and Matthew would surely have been familiar with micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”
M and L's nativity stories attempt to solve the problem that Jesus inconveniently came from Nazareth, not Bethlehem. When you note that all it takes is the gospellers could read and copy bits from the old scriptures into their stories it seems a lot less impressive!
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@keithprosser
But predicting where the Messiah would be born, when, details of His life, and how He would die, instigated but not physically put to death by His own people but at the hands of the Romans. How do you predict this stuff?It's clearly impossible.
UNLESS God is behind the prophecy.
What is not impossible is for the evanglists to deliberately add or tweak their accounts to make it appear a 'prophesy' was fulfilled. Both Luke and Matthew would surely have been familiar with micah 5:2“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,though you are small among the clans of Judah,out of you will come for meone who will be ruler over Israel,whose origins are from of old,from ancient times.”M and L's nativity stories attempt to solve the problem that Jesus inconveniently came from Nazareth, not Bethlehem. When you note that all it takes is the gospellers could read and copy bits from the old scriptures into their stories it seems a lot less impressive!
First, where is this tapering noted as happening from early historic records? Please list your sources or admit you are speculating and from what we have available this is not reasonable.
Second, both Matthew and Luke state emphatically that Jesus was BORN in Bethlehem.
[ The Visit of the Magi ] Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying,
[ Jesus’ Birth in Bethlehem ] Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth...
4 Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David, 5 in order to register along with Mary, who was engaged to him, and was with child. 6 While they were there, the days were completed for her to give birth. 7 And she gave birth to her firstborn son; and she wrapped Him in cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.
4 Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David, 5 in order to register along with Mary, who was engaged to him, and was with child. 6 While they were there, the days were completed for her to give birth. 7 And she gave birth to her firstborn son; and she wrapped Him in cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.
Third, Joseph was from Nazareth, so his Son would possibly be registered as living there. But Joseph had to register in Bethlehem where it is CLEARLY stated that Jesus was born.
Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David,
‘And you, Bethlehem, land of Judah, Are by no means least among the leaders of Judah; For out of you shall come forth a Ruler Who will shepherd My people Israel.’”
Yes, both authors, knowing Scripture would be aware of the prophecy, thus they proclaim the prophecy is fulfilled.
Not only that but after fleeing to Egypt and returning Jesus' family takes up residence in Nazareth. Jesus learns His trade there.
and came and lived in a city called Nazareth. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophets: “He shall be called a Nazarene.”
So, even there prophecy is fulfilled.
Your argument is weak and not rational unless you have good supporting evidence, so what is it other than you speculating.
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@PGA2.0
I don't think it is neccessary to demonstrate that people are capable of being dishonest; it is neccesary to demonstrate people have clairvoyant powers! You have been banging on about reasonableness. What is the more reasonable explanation - a spot of dishonesty or the gross violation of every known law of physics?
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@keithprosser
I don't think it is neccessary to demonstrate that people are capable of being dishonest; it is neccesary to demonstrate people have clairvoyant powers.
We are speaking of God as the source, not humans. This seems to be the only thing that is avoided in the conversation. Would it be unreasonable for God to know the future in full detail?
You have been banging on about reasonableness. What is the more reasonable explanation - a spot of dishonesty or the gross violation of every known law of physics?
That depends on how you think this universe and life originated. How do you get laws of physics and laws of nature in the first place?
Why should laws continue to exist and why should they be sustained indefinitely? What say you?
Either way, you have to come up with an explanation of prophecy. Based on what is available and what is known, what is more reasonable? How does Daniel 9, written before the fall of Jerusalem, know these details? You say they were smuggled in after the fact. But we have writings dated before the fact. Hundreds of different prophecies predict the Messiah, people verify that Jesus is that Messiah. And the NT apostles go to their deaths proclaiming not only this but that He has been raised from the dead.
I confess to not knowing a good answer to that!Why should laws continue to exist and why should they be sustained indefinitely? What say you?
Either way, you have to come up with an explanation of prophecy. Based on what is available and what is known, what is more reasonable? How does Daniel 9, written before the fall of Jerusalem, know these details? You say they were smuggled in after the fact. But we have writings dated before the fact. Hundreds of different prophecies predict the Messiah, people verify that Jesus is that Messiah. And the NT apostles go to their deaths proclaiming not only this but that He has been raised from the dead.
There is any number of 'experts' we could both cite, but I don't see the point. Sorry if that is disappointing, but I can't write anything better than what is easily available in the web and you are bound to be familiar with it.
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@PGA2.0
How does 70 weeks stack up for accuracy?
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@keithprosser
Right, the fact that these writers were aware of the significance of the prophecies, they were highly motivated to make them fit.But in Mathew we read "They brought the donkey and the colt and placed their cloaks on them for Jesus to sit on." Quite clearly two animals. Not only that but jesus sits on them both - presumbly like some sort of circus act! It seems likely that Matthew didn't identify the poetic aspect and took Zechariah literally. In other words he wasn't a witness but adapted what he found in the old scripture to construct his tale.
Sort of a case of "self-fulfilling prophecy".
However, even if the prophecies were 100% authentic, they do nothing to authenticate the "divinity" of the Jesus.
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@PGA2.0
The Jesus was a real, historical human being.
The (historically verifiable) prophecies of the Jewish and Christian scriptures are 100% true.
Neither of these things lend the slightest credibility to either the Jewish or Christian religious beliefs.
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@3RU7AL
But in Mathew we read "They brought the donkey and the colt and placed their cloaks on them for Jesus to sit on." Quite clearly two animals. Not only that but jesus sits on them both - presumbly like some sort of circus act! It seems likely that Matthew didn't identify the poetic aspect and took Zechariah literally. In other words he wasn't a witness but adapted what he found in the old scripture to construct his tale.
Not so fast. While Matthew writes to a Jewish audience and presents a Jewish view of the Scriptures, noting fulfillment after fulfillment of the Jewish Scriptures, and sometimes quite literally interprets (Zechariah 9:9), the wording does not necessarily imply Jesus sitting on two animals but the reference could be to the cloaks which are draped over two animals. The cloaks were put on both animals and since the colt is unbroken the mother would be brought along too to placate or calm the colt. So, instead of sitting on two animals Jesus could be sitting on two cloaks which draped over two animals.
Glenn Miller summarizes the text well:
"So, the two-animal problem is not as ‘intractable’ as it might look like at
first, since all the elements actually fit together quite well—for both the narrative and for the fulfillment quote:
- The parallel in the Gospel of John shows that abbreviation of both narrative and fulfillment quote is legitimate for anauthor,and that therefore a reduction of mother-and-foal (in the event) to colt-only (in the gospel narrative) by other gospel writers is perfectly natural.
- Matthew uses all the standard terms for the animals, and these terms match the Hebrew of Zechariah perfectly.
- His description of the dual-action of mother-colt fits what we know of animal handling, festival proceedings, and basic practice of the period.
- His language is such that no one needassetthat Jesus straddled two animals!
- His use of Hebrew texts and parallelism elsewhere in his gospel shows us that he did not misunderstand Zech9.9,and that he would ‘know better’ than to try to foist a ‘dualist’ interpretation upon his Jewish readership!
- His could not have translated the Zechariah quote any truer or any more carefully, for proper communication to his readership.
- His use of the mother donkey in the story can be easily and naturally explained by the vividness of its impression upon him as an eyewitness—the visual image of the ‘colt, the son of a she-ass’ communicated the concreteness of God’s fulfilling His promises to Israel for hermessiah."
Right, the fact that these writers were aware of the significance of the prophecies, they were highly motivated to make them fit.Sort of a case of "self-fulfilling prophecy".
While you can claim "self-fulfillment" it becomes a lot harder to prove, in fact, in some cases impossible.
What you seem to be implying here is that these gospel writers made up a fictitious life to comply with prophetic fulfillment. If that is the charge it ignores extra-biblical accounts that confirm Jesus as a historical person and it also ignores the evidence that this was the case. So it is purely speculative and goes against the wealth of evidence we do have unless you can produce such evidence.
It also begs the question of why these people, this group of people claiming to be eyewitnesses or obtaining their information from eyewitnesses, would die for what they knew was a lie? We have, what appears in the gospels, to be people preaching about honesty and truth that would have to be (all the time) working against such principles. So such noble principles and teachings as the sermon on the mount would also be a lie.
The majority of the Jewish Scriptures (OT) speak of judgment or curses for not repenting. Their seeking after foreign gods and their idolatry is a punishable offense, so God speaks of bringing destruction and all the calamities written about in Deuteronomy 28 upon these people. He gives then a period of seventy heptads or 490 years until, 1) the Messiah comes and is put to death, 2) the destruction of the city and temple happens again, before the "end." End of what? Israel has no control over whether these things happen or not, such as "even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate” or " and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed" or "for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time" or "go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age.” Every one of these prophecies applies to Daniel's people, a people in covenant with God, and that covenant relationship no longer exists after AD 70. How do you manufacture that? How do you manufacture the six specific prophecies of Daniel 9:24?
How do you manufacture a crucifixion, and Jesus, events that even those not believing the gospel accounts and are Jews write about? How do you manufacture His genealogy, that would have to fit with an Old Covenant people, and the genealogical records were kept in the temple, which no longer exists after AD 70? So, again, after that timeframe, there is no way of proving the roots comply with the genealogies.
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@3RU7AL
However, even if the prophecies were 100% authentic, they do nothing to authenticate the "divinity" of the Jesus.
The NT applies OT Scripture to Jesus regarding things that solely apply to God in the OT. Even passages in the OT suggest the one God as a plurality of Beings.
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
The Lord Gives Dominion to the King.
A Psalm of David.
110 The Lord says to my Lord:
“Sit at My right hand
Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”
Isaiah 9:6 (NASB)“Sit at My right hand
Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Not only this, but God makes a Mosaic covenant with Israel as recorded in the OT. Jesus makes an eternal covenant with the NT Israel as recorded in the NT. God calls Himself "I Am" in Exodus 3:14. Jesus uses the same term to refer to Himself in the NT. In Isaiah 45:23 God says that every knee will bow before Him, and in the NT we are told every knee will bow before Jesus and confess He is Lord. In the OT God is the One who heals. In the NT Jesus heals. In the OT God says that He will not give His glory to another. In the NT we are told that Jesus is returning to the Father and to the same glory that He shared before He came to earth. So, over and over we see what is applied to God and only God is also applied to Jesus.
Isaiah 45:22-24 (NASB)
22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 “I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24 “They will say of Me, ‘Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.’
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 “I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24 “They will say of Me, ‘Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.’
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
Philippians 2:9-11 (NASB)
9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
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@3RU7AL
The Jesus was a real, historical human being.
Is this something you are admitting or is there another point you are driving at?
The (historically verifiable) prophecies of the Jewish and Christian scriptures are 100% true.
If they are what they claim to be (God's revelation) this would logically be the case.
Neither of these things lend the slightest credibility to either the Jewish or Christian religious beliefs.
I'm not following in relation to what your statements are a reference to from what I have said? They come out of the blue. Please supply the context.
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@PGA2.0
The Jesus was a real, historical human being.Is this something you are admitting or is there another point you are driving at?The (historically verifiable) prophecies of the Jewish and Christian scriptures are 100% true.If they are what they claim to be (God's revelation) this would logically be the case.Neither of these things lend the slightest credibility to either the Jewish or Christian religious beliefs.I'm not following in relation to what your statements are a reference to from what I have said? They come out of the blue. Please supply the context.
For example,
Gilgamesh was a real, historical human being.
The (historically verifiable) events and prophecies of the Epic of Gilgamesh are 100% true.
Neither of these things lend the slightest credibility to the ancient Sumerian religious beliefs.