Save James

Author: Vader

Posts

Total: 77
Swagnarok
Swagnarok's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 1,018
3
2
6
Swagnarok's avatar
Swagnarok
3
2
6
I think we can generally agree that there's something of a dilemma when it comes to this kind of thing (not speaking of the claims made in this particular case but in general):
MTF transitioning has the best cosmetic outcome when puberty is blocked. That requires for the process to begin before a certain age. Conversely, that gives the patient less time to decide, "Do I really want to go through with this procedure which is in some respects irreversible?". For that, they ought to have plenty of time. Going through puberty as normal helps them establish their sense of self and gender identity. To force the process without the benefit of this could very well ruin their lives.
As for children below surgical age, the approach towards "gender neutral parenting" would ideally mean simply that both kinds of toys and whatnot are available. A normal boy will gravitate towards masculine toys more, because the girl toys are not as interesting, though it shouldn't be considered unusual if he dallies with the girl toys somewhat. Unfortunately, these results can be skewed depending on whether he has a sibling of a similar age, and what gender that sibling is.
When I was maybe 4 or 5 years old I did a little bit of playing with girl stuff because the only sibling who wanted to spend time with me was the sister immediately closest to me in age, and I followed her lead on most things. I grew out of it, though some nudging was needed.
The approach of explicitly or implicitly nudging towards toys, clothes, and styles of play appropriate for that gender is what gender-neutral parenting seeks to avoid. But then he will surely be nudged by his male peers. Either they will explicitly pressure him to reform, through cruel taunts or more physical means, or refuse to associate with him until he does. There is no guarantee that the girls will want to associate with him, or him with them, since they are not like him. So in most cases truly gender-neutral parenting will result in boys who are boyish overall, as the school of hard knocks will set him straight eventually. It's a level of temporary misery that could've been avoided by raising him as a boy as is normal.
Unfortunately, in practice what most examples of "gender neutral parenting" mean is "enforced equal exposure", rather than equal opportunity of exposure. Explicitly encouraging boys to play with girl toys, which skews the results as he's not likewise praised for playing with the boy toys. Him wanting to receive more praise from his parents, a perverse feedback loop ensues, until finally they've got him anesthetized in an operating room in Thailand with the doctor preparing to chop his 12 year old dong off.
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,689
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Swagnarok
I agree it is a dilemma and I believe these sort of decisions belong well away from any sort of public consensus- the more intimately held and individualized by case, the better.  I am not a parent but I think there's some important risk in honoring a child's opinion too much, even when the question is as personal as social and sexual identity.  I think my advice would be to forestall any permanent change and adopt changes incrementally in response to expert supervision but I don't think I could ever impose that sensibility on parents seeking some satisfactory adaptation.  I think something like this is case to case.  My judgement in this case is there's no evidence that some kid's mother is doing other than fine, that Jeff Younger is a grifter working his kid's story for cash.  I'd like to see Younger defer to his ex-wife's objectively superior capacity to help.
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@Vader
All I am saying is chemically castrating your son when he doesn't want it is child abuse.
if that was all you are saying no-one could argue; it's like saying blinding your son is child abuse.

But you are also saying this is case of it happening,  and then bringing in in liberalism, gay rights, atheism...  and you are so wrong on so many points it's embarassing to watch.


Discipulus_Didicit
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 5,294
3
4
10
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Discipulus_Didicit
3
4
10
They are nihilists, they don't believe anything. It is really because they are selfish. If nothing is true, then they can be self righteous. They don't argue honestly because they don't believe anything they say. They say whatever is convenient. They don't have a love for the truth, which is why they have been cursed with strong delusion.

Love you too Mopac =-)

Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@Discipulus_Didicit
Goldtop and Disgusted are nihilists.

Are you a nihilist? I hope not. I'll have you know that there is nothing reasonable about nihilism.



Discipulus_Didicit
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 5,294
3
4
10
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Discipulus_Didicit
3
4
10
-->
@Mopac
Are you a nihilist? I hope not. I'll have you know that there is nothing reasonable about nihilism.

By your definition I probably am.

By the actual definition, no I certainly am not.
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@Discipulus_Didicit
Well, I hope you one day come to your senses and depart from such wickedness. 



disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
-->
@Discipulus_Didicit
Poor Mop hears words and wants to use those words because he thinks those words make him important, unfortunately he doesn't know what those words mean and consistently uses them in the wrong context and only looks stupidly ignorant as a result. He wants to look educated and important but comes off just looking ignorant.
Goldtop
Goldtop's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,706
2
1
2
Goldtop's avatar
Goldtop
2
1
2
-->
@Mopac
Whoops! There he goes again, calling us wicked because we aren't insane like Mopac.
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@Goldtop
You are doing a bad job keeping your own advice.

Stop feeding the troll, loser.
Vader
Vader's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 14,585
5
8
11
Vader's avatar
Vader
5
8
11
-->
@Mopac
Is the troll refering to me?

If all honesty, just tune him out. He says we discriminate gays when his religion justifies rape and school shooters

Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@Vader
No, he calls me a troll.

And indeed, trolling is a fishing term. 
Jesus said follow me and I will make you fishers of men.

I can't be offended at this.

Vader
Vader's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 14,585
5
8
11
Vader's avatar
Vader
5
8
11
-->
@Mopac
I am not offended by him either

disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
Ooh look the funny hats agree.
disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
-->
@Mopac
Should we compile a list of words that you use but don't understand? Here's a start.
Nihilist.
Iconoclasm
Superstitious

Everyone is encouraged to add to this in the hope that it may help Mop.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Vader
Liberal will support having a boy forcefully chemically castrated.
Please cite your sources.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Goldtop
Good point.

Imagine if all remarried divorcees were excommunicated.  We don't allow adulterers in our congregation.  No way.  No how.